< HOME  Thursday, March 09, 2006

Samson: the ultimate suicide bomber

There is a lot of worry popping up in the media just now - "Can Israel Survive?" Don't worry about it. It relates to something that Palestinians, the Arabs, and perhaps most Americans don't realize - the Jews are never going quietly again. Never. And if the world doesn't come to understand that, then millions of Arabs are going to die. It's as simple as that. - Joe McCain*
The double standard of the "international community" re Iran's "supposed" nuclear armaments program rings a tad more shrill every day. As signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and additional protocols Iran has every right to carry out uranium enrichment for purposes other than weaponization.

Which is why the US has since 2004 favored "Iran's exit from NPT … and its allies are following up. It will give them the pretense to report Iran to the UN Security Council," Pirouz Mojtahedzadeh told PIN in an interview. "The United States has been seeking to tell the world that Iran is producing atomic weapons. In the meantime, this country has failed to offer any evidence."

But even if it were true that Iran is seeking nuclear arms (something which has not been proven) in a region where Israel (a non-signatory of the NPT along with Pakistan and India) has a reported 400 warheads and the admitted capability to intercept the Shihab-3 rocket, the basis for any Iranian "nuclear missile," one would think the balance of terror alone would be deterrent enough.

Unless there is some other reason. According to Efraim Inbar of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, the nature of the threat lies in his claim that "The Islamic Republic of Iran is the greatest and most urgent threat to the new regional order in the Middle East and to American hegemony in world affairs."

The part about American hegemony we've heard countless times before. It is merely there to appease those who subscribe to American Imperial designs. The more interesting phrase in the last sentence is "the new regional order in the Middle East."

The New Regional Order
There was a time when the United States was the unquestioned military superpower in the Middle East and drew obedient if grudging respect from all sides. No more. Now Israel is the region's superpower, and where it once looked to the United States not just for diplomatic support but also for military rescue, now Israel can thumb its nose at Washington and go its own way.David Wood
As you may have noted the only voices that seem to increase in volume and vindictiveness towards Iran and in support of opening a new war front in the Middle East is Israel and its supporters'. Why would that be? Could it have anything to do with this "new regional order"? To answer that we have to take a closer look at the taboo that is the Israeli nuclear and biological weapons programs and strategic posture. This will also answer the question, "What is Joe McCain talking about?"

According to John Steinbach, in 2002 Israel had "supplanted Britain as the World's 5th Largest nuclear power, and may currently rival France and China in the size and sophistication of its nuclear arsenal." Israeli nuclear weapons research was spearheaded in the late 1940's by Ernest David Bergman. It was France "which provided the bulk of early nuclear assistance to Israel culminating in construction of Dimona," which went online in 1964. With all that in place one problem remained. How was Israel to get its hands on the necessary uranium: "yellowcake"?

Steinbach writes: "The short term answer was to mount commando raids in France and Britain to successfully hijack uranium shipments and, in 1968, to collaborate with West Germany in diverting 200 tons of yellowcake (uranium oxide). These clandestine acquisitions of uranium for Dimona were subsequently covered up by the various countries involved. There was also an allegation that a U.S. corporation called Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation (NUMEC) diverted hundreds of pounds of enriched uranium to Israel from the mid-50s to the mid-60s.

"Despite an FBI and CIA investigation, and Congressional hearings, no one was ever prosecuted, although most other investigators believed the diversion had occurred. In the late 1960s, Israel solved the uranium problem by developing close ties with South Africa in a quid pro quo arrangement whereby Israel supplied the technology and expertise for the "Apartheid Bomb," while South Africa provided the uranium."

Something else the Israeli and former Apartheid regime co-authored in happy genocidal unison was the so-called "ethno-bullet." In 1997, US Defense Secretary William Cohen "revealed that he had received reports of countries working to create 'certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic-specific.' A senior western intelligence source confirmed last week that Israel was one of the countries Cohen had in mind."

"In developing their "ethno-bomb", Israeli scientists are trying to exploit medical advances by identifying distinctive genes carried by some Arabs, then create a genetically modified bacterium or virus. The intention is to use the ability of viruses and certain bacteria to alter the DNA inside their host's living cells. The scientists are trying to engineer deadly micro-organisms that attack only those bearing the distinctive genes. The programme is based at the biological institute in Nes Tziyona, the main research facility for Israel's clandestine arsenal of chemical and biological weapons."

On November 15, 1998, The Sunday Times published a report stating that "Israel is working on a genetically-targeted biological weapon. The article cites Israeli military officials and western intelligence officials as sources for the report. The biological weapon is to be used to kill Arabs (mostly Iraqis) based on their genetic make-up. An unidentified scientist working on the project is quoted as saying that Israeli scientists have 'succeeded in pinpointing a particular characteristic in the genetic profile of certain Arab communities, particularly the Iraqi people.' The program is allegedly being worked on at the Israel Institute for Biological Research (IIBR)."

Getting back to Israel's nuclear weapons we have to ask, of what type are they? According to Steinbach "there is little doubt that Israeli nukes are among the world's most sophisticated, largely designed for 'war fighting' in the Middle East. A staple of the Israeli nuclear arsenal are 'neutron bombs,' miniaturized thermonuclear bombs designed to maximize deadly gamma radiation while minimizing blast effects and long term radiation - in essence designed to kill people while leaving property intact."

Other types include: ballistic and cruise missiles capable of ranges up to 950 miles, nuclear landmines, artillery shells with ranges up to 45 miles, cruise bearing submarines, and "the bombs themselves [which] range in size from 'city busters' larger than the Hiroshima Bomb to tactical mini nukes."

He concludes that "The Israeli arsenal of weapons of mass destruction clearly dwarfs the actual or potential arsenals of all other Middle Eastern states combined, and is vastly greater than any conceivable need for 'deterrence.'" Thereby establishing that the gravest threat to Israel from Iran is not the threat of attack, as Efriam Inbar would have it, but the threat to its "regional hegemony:" the loss of atomic leverage.

Samson's Endlösung
Masada was not an example to follow - it hurt the Romans not a whit, but Samson in Gaza? With an H-bomb? What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens?" - David Perlmutter in Los Angeles Times
As for Israel's strategic posture re nuclear weapons, the main doctrine has been that Israeli WMD's are a deterrence against conventional and unconventional attacks. Failing that the next strategic choice would be the "Samson Option," i.e. "an all-out attack against an adversary should defenses fail and population centers be threatened." According to Seymour Hersh the title stems from "Israel's notion that once they have the Bomb, they are in a position to bring it all down on everyone if ever they feel cornered." Much like the biblical Samson who "commits suicide by pushing down the temple pillars, in order to kill as many of the Philistine leaders as he can."

It has been this threat of a nuclear bullet to the world's temple that Israel has used and uses today to form a great deal of Middle East policy. The Israeli nuclear doctrine is broader and includes a pre-emptive option. In an address to the Department of War Studies, King's College, London, on October 16, 1996, Louis Rene Beres opined that "Deterrence and preemption strategies could fail, even though they had been supported by nuclear weapons, and Israel's continued survival might then require the weapons and tactics needed for nuclear warfighting."

On May 15, 2001, Beres spoke of "The credibility of Israel's still deliberately ambiguous nuclear deterrent … could create erroneous calaculations by prospective attackers, a situation that could plausibly undermine Israel's nuclear deterrent … Perceptions are all-important in matters of Israeli nuclear deterrence. By keeping all elements of its nuclear doctrine secret, Israel could contribute to an impression among its regional enemies that Israeli nuclear weapons are unusable. "

Therefore, he says, "To prevent nuclear war, Israel needs an appropriate nuclear deterrent. But it cannot rely entirely upon this one base of national security any more than it can rely only upon conventional deterrence. Rather, it must now rely upon complementary nuclear and conventional forces, and upon the continuing and associated availability of certain preemption options." Which I take to mean Israel's willingness to strike first with nuclear weapons lest the "enemy" should get ideas must be made as plain as day (no pun intended).

A great part of the strategy depends on the "enemy's" knowledge of it. This is achieved in part through the dissemination of overt and covert "crazier than thou" threats such as the one by Perlmutter quoted above.

Threat of the Third Temple Bullet

Bere's plans are of course only a prelude to the "Samson Option." Not only that, the "Samson Option" has a broader scope. It is used to blackmail. According to Steinbach "As early as 1956 Francis Perrin, head of the French A-bomb project wrote 'We thought the Israeli Bomb was aimed at the Americans, not to launch it at the Americans, but to say, "If you don't want to help us in a critical situation we will require you to help us; otherwise we will use our nuclear bombs."'"

"During the 1973 war, Israel used nuclear blackmail to force Kissinger and Nixon to airlift massive amounts of military hardware to Israel. The Israeli Ambassador, Simha Dinitz, is quoted as saying, at the time, 'If a massive airlift to Israel does not start immediately, then I will know that the U.S. is reneging on its promises and...we will have to draw very serious conclusions...'"

"Just one example of this strategy was spelled out in 1987 by Amos Rubin, economic adviser to Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who said 'If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid.' Since then Israel's nuclear arsenal has expanded exponentially, both quantitatively and qualitatively, while the U.S. money spigots remain wide open."

Along these same lines Tom Ambrose ended his 2003 article "Big, Bad Israel" with these words: "If the day should ever arrive that Israel is destroyed by its enemies, the U.S. will surely and shortly thereafter meet its own demise."

I'll end this post with an extended quote from an article by David Hirsh published in the Observer on Sunday September 21, 2003:

The threatening of wild, irrational violence, in response to political pressure, has been an Israeli impulse from the very earliest days. It was first authoritatively documented, in the 1950s, by Moshe Sharett, the dovish Prime Minister, who wrote of his Defence Minister, Pinhas Lavon, that he 'constantly preached for acts of madness' or 'going crazy' if ever Israel were crossed. Without a 'just, comprehensive and lasting' peace which only America can bring to pass, Israel will remain at least as likely a candidate as Iran, and a far more enduring one, for the role of 'nuclear-crazy' state.

Iran can never be threatened in its very existence. Israel can. Indeed, such a threat could even grow out of the current intifada. That, at least, is the pessimistic opinion of Martin van Creveld, professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. 'If it went on much longer,' he said, 'the Israeli government [would] lose control of the people. In campaigns like this, the anti-terror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing. I regard a total Israeli defeat as unavoidable. That will mean the collapse of the Israeli state and society. We'll destroy ourselves.'

In this situation, he went on, more and more Israelis were coming to regard the 'transfer' of the Palestinians as the only salvation; resort to it was growing 'more probable' with each passing day. Sharon 'wants to escalate the conflict and knows that nothing else will succeed'.

But would the world permit such ethnic cleansing? 'That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.'


Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother. This is why all nations fall in line?


Notes:

* Brother of Senator John McCain, 11 April 2002.

33 Comments:

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

tomtom,

thx. interesting points. like you i can't say yes or no to the scenario's likelihood.

then again "acting" like a mad dog seems to have paid off. whether they really are mad, who knows? the fact that thier act gets them what they want is probably enoguh for them right?

and you have to factor in masada. "we will kill ourselves before they kill us."

add that to Samson and you got some powerfull hoodoo.

peace

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

tomtom,

one more thing. they might be bluffing, grant you that.

but who's gonna call the bluff?

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

DUH!

Of course there is a double standard.

Israel is a friend and Iran is not.

It's pretty obvious. I touched upon this earlier.


Has Israel ever used a nuke? Helllz no!!! They can actually be trusted to keep their technology from terrorists seeking to destroy America. Iran cannot.

It's really that simple. Feel free to dispute that, I really do not care.

I also do not see why it's "political blackmail" for Israel to say "If you do not bomb Iran's weapons sites, we will." Um, that does not force America to bomb anything. America could easily say "Fine, take care of it yourself, then!"

Blackmail is "If you don't bomb Iran, we will bomb you." That is not what Israel is saying. Let's use correct terminology here!

-So sayeth the "Sayan"

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

As far as nuclear technology secrets passed to Israel, I can say that Jonathan Pollard was jailed for treason. So there has been some action taken - as a point of fact.

As far as having the bomb - it's pretty obvious that Israel has it for the same reasons other nations have it. The idea is the threat of a bomb is what allows peace to happen. That is pretty well known/obvious.

And as far as how many bombs Israel has - I do not know. I don't know how many bombs many nations have. America itself has never revealed how much it has in its nuclear arsenal - and yet America is the only nation in the world to have used nukes in combat. I would say America is more of a threat than your rabid-dog focus on Israel, especially with Bush at the helm.

And all that said - despite the hypocrisy - the fact remains that America has not used nukes since 1945, and obviously has no intention of passing nuke secrets to non-state actors. In contrast, a suicide bombing seminar occurred in Iran, a nation whose publicly stated it wants to destroy Israel.

So...yeah...there is a difference. And it should be reflected in the policy. To pretend Iran=Israel=America is just foolhardy.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

funny that you mention the suicide bomber seminar in Iran that I posted about a couple of weeks ago.

My initial response to that report, was: this is a sham. But, I posted it anyway figuring it was going to get a lot of coverage by the mainstream media. For one reason or another, I never heard about it again. Not a word. Very odd.

jc, this is a very interesting post. Great presentation of the information and comprehensive citing. great work.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

I heard about the seminar in the so-called mainstream media. In fact, I have links about it. So much for that theory of your's.

Link 1: ABC news - rather "mainstrea"
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=1641344

Link 2 - Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR2006021801377.html

Link 3 - Boston Globe
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/02/18/bombers_warn_us_against_iran_attacks/

You get the point. I could go on for pages about the places where the seminar was mentioned. You are, as a point of fact, wrong that the "MSM" did not break this story.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

One more thing, TomTom.

Europe should feel damned guilty over the Holocaust.

They allowed it to happen - and even encouraged it. They should feel guilty as hell. France, Austria, the pope in Italy, the USSR, Poland...they all were accomplices in the Holocaust and allowed it to happen.

The funny bit of irony is that it was Denmark, the country in which had the Danish cartoons, which is the one nation that Hitler conquered that stood up for the Jews. As a point of fact, the King of Denmark wore a Jewish star on his arm in solidarity with the Jews, and they proceeded to smuggle all Jews out of Denmark by ship to Sweden.

The Scandanavian countries simply rock.

Anyway, just thought it was worth it to inform you about something you might not have known.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

sure, they "broke it." My point is that talk show hosts didn't have a hey day as I imagined they would. Why?

You would think that something like that would be pretty good evidence of extremism and perfect for those who are bent on condemning Iran. So, why are they all so quiet?

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

gee with the word 'jew" at the heading of the topic I would have thought Thor would have replied with his vast interlect on this particular subject, after all isn't our in house jew expert?

Non the less it looks like someone is going to attack, its just who has the balls to drop the first bomb.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger John Shklov said...

Well documented and well written post. I rather like your Samson reference, the biblical always sonehow brings forward a subtle sense of authority and credibility.

On the other hand, Since many years ago and a high ranking Israeli (before their bombs were public knowledge) told me "The Arabs know we have the bomb and we will take the world with us if we have to!" His point at the time was that it would stop an Arab Invasion of Israel. I always think of Israel like having a mad dog on a very short leash for the world.

When a mad dog goes off anyone, including his handler can be severely mauled.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

I have no idea why the media did not focus on this one story above all others. But it was WAS featured, and it was also featured on 24 hour news channels.

Furthermore, your logic makes no sense. If it was heavily featured in the 24 hour news channels, you would say it is propoganda for a war. If it is NOT featured, you say the seminar is a lie. So according to you - you're damned if you do and damned if you don't!

To sum up your logic: Anything you disagree with is either a lie and/or conspiracy theory.

Palestinian suicide bombers? No, they do not exist - it's an Israeli conspiracy theory!

Islamic fundamentalism? It's the result of the west and a conspiracy theory?

9/11 - Planned by the U.S./Israel - conspiracy theory!

Iranian suicide bombing seminar - Lie/conspiracy theory!

Danish cartoons - Conspiracy theory to inflame Muslim anger!

Moussaoui - Made insane by the US - conspiracy theory!

Now, I am even seeing support for the resident hater/adorable little urchin, Thor/Appy. Predictable and funny.

Wow, I really wonder how you sleep at night if you think America and Israel are that evil.

Meanwhile, I see post after post after post focusing on conspiracy theories, and increasingly less posts focusing on proven facts that in and of themselves are damaging enough to prove a hell of a lot. Not only do you accomplish exactly zippo by hemming and hawing about conspiracy theories, you are counterproductive, as it makes it seem those who oppose Bush's policies (and also the on occasion legitimately bad policies of Israel) are conspiracy theorists who blindly hate America and Israel.

What I ask all of you is how much any of you are doing to actually CHANGE the situation in the world? Y'all think it's so evil? Then go and do something about it instead of complaining. You are accomplishing literally zippo.

QRS, If you really are so against the interest system in America, then come with me when I volunteer at the county court, counseling debtors who face judgments against them. Or do something else! Plan something! Do something! I read ONE POST so far that actually involved DOING SOMETHING about the situation. (the one on the seminar in Chicago)

THAT is what is effective. All this bluster is, if anything, counterproductive.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

Iran's Deadly EMP Weapon Latest Neo-Con War Fraud

From the same snake oil salesmen that brought you 45 minute attack claims, dodgy dossiers and weapons bunkers that were bakeries, comes the shocking new threat that could knock America back into the stone age, Iran's deadly EMP weapons.

[mike rivero's comment:] "And, and, and, ... a Death Star. Iran has a DEATH STAR!! Oooooh, scary, scary Iran. Can we bomb them now?" -- Official White Horse Souse

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

martin van crevald:

Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.

if this isn't a threat, what is?

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

According to Seymour Hersh, "the size and sophistication of Israel's nuclear arsenal allows men such as Ariel Sharon to dream of redrawing the map of the Middle East aided by the implicit threat of nuclear force." .... Ze'ev Shiff, an Israeli military expert writing in Haaretz said, "Whoever believes that Israel will ever sign the UN Convention prohibiting the proliferation of nuclear weapons... is day dreaming," and Munya Mardoch, Director of the Israeli Institute for the Development of Weaponry, said in 1994, "The moral and political meaning of nuclear weapons is that states which renounce their use are acquiescing to the status of Vassal states. All those states which feel satisfied with possessing conventional weapons alone are fated to become vassal states."

Iran does not seem to be interested in being a vassal state. So israel decides it must be taught a lesson.

this is what is going on.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

JC,

Yes, Israel does have nuclear capabilities, an incredible intelligence network, and a top notch military. Do I dispute this? Hellllz no!!!

At the same time, Israel, contrary to the fun little lies you pass as fact, has restrained from using its weapons unless attacked, and mostly has the top notch army as a deterrent against attack.

The fact remains that Israel has no plans to "drive Iran into the sea" or destroy Iran. They are only concerned about the nuclear weapon potential that can destroy THEM! This is a well founded fear, as far as I can see.

Israel has nukes, and yet has not nuked the Palestinians, despite constant suicide bombing attacks. They in fact have never used their nukes ONCE, and have no intention of passing on nuke information to dangerous non-state actors/terrorists. Iran has a completely different agenda.

I know I am talking to a wall here, and you will come back and say "Israel is evil, Sayan!!!" I realize this, and so I am typing my posts, sort of laughing.

Of course you ignored everything I wrote about actually DOING SOMETHING about the world you hate. See, you would rather talk all sorts of conspiracy theory bluster that accomplishes nothing, rather than taking action to change the world. The latter would actually entail effort. It's easier to simmer in hatred and engage in name calling.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

"We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."

Sounds like a threat to me. Can they, or would they do it? Who knows.

Yes, I agree, jc. Israelis want everyone else in the world to fall in line with their program. Those who will not are marginalized, punished and/or destroyed.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Oh, and vper1, I think I love you. :-p

Douglas Adams rocks, and that quote rocks. That may be my new signature. My own thoughts on the world are: LOOK TO CHERNOBYL! It is a flowering paradise in the wake of its nuclear explosion. This proves humanity is a worse blight on the earth's ecosystem than nuclear waste! So if the earth is bombed to oblivion, at least cool new flora and fauna will exist.

To quote George Carlin: The earth is not in trouble. It's human beings that are endangered species.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

vper1,

That last quote also rocks! You are just a regular source for wonderful quotes! My crush in you has grown quite strong. :-)

QRS and JC,

You make no sense. Are you saying that every other nuclear power is any different? DUH, THIS IS WHY THEY HAVE NUKES! IT IS RATHER OBVIOUS!

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

DUH, THIS IS WHY israel has NUKES! IT IS RATHER OBVIOUS!

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

JC,

This is the first indication you have shown that you actually have a sense of humor. I applaud you!

And you just admit that Israel has nukes for the same reason every other nation has nukes. Thank you for finally stating the obvious.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

i have quoted israeli official discussing israeli military doctrine in very clear terms.

i have quoted people like mccain and perelman who support these doctrines and they've made themselves very clear.

if you had read the post and checked the sources i might concede that it is worthwhile talking to you. it seems you have not, since the only thing you seem capable of is accusing me of promoting conspiracies and lies.

which lies? the lies of begin, inbar, mccain perelman, hersh et al.?

the israelis and others i quote in my piece have made it very clear why they have nuclear weapons.

is your dispute with them? no, it's with me for presenting them.

the fact is these people i quote determine policies and actions. not you. they have the finger on the bomb trigger. not you. they have threatened the world. not you.

what is it about these facts that you would have silenced?

why do you not address them?

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

also, the "samson option" is israeli neclear doctrine/ i did not make the plans and i did not come up with the terms and analogies. israelis did in order to explain the doctrine.

again, why would you have these facts suppressed?

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

in other words, what is your motive?

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

JC,

My point is that your quote sonly reveal an honesty about the Israeli nuclear weapons program.

The truth is that everynation has nukes both as a deterrant ("don't attack me - I HAVE NUKES!") and as an insurance policy. ("If you attack me with nukes, I have nukes to attack back!)

Your quotes simply reveal brutal honesty about why Israel has a nuke program.

Thankfully, until now, the deterrant effect of a world of nations with nukes have kept the world ironically safe.

In contrast to the stated reasons Israel (and the rest of the world) have for their nuclear program, Iran has expressed a desire to drive Israel into the sea. They also have shown a willingness to sponsor terrorism on their soil. This is different than every other nation with nukes.

It is pretty obvious and I have no idea why you refuse to see it. C'est la vie.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

TomTom,

Firstly, I want to say that the new generation of Europeans should not have guilt over what they did not do, BUT, they should be aware of what was done. In their name. And for the record, Vichy France handed over the names of Jews to the Nazis. As did the pope, as did all the other nations I mentioned. They cooperated with the Nazis and helped them.

Re: Israel.

You are simply mischaracterizing what Israel is doing.

Israelis want peace, but in order to have peace, they need an effective peace partner. They did not have it in the corrupt/horrible Arafat. And they cannot negotiate with Abbas, who has no power. In order for peace, there first has to be a recognition of Israel's right to exist. Secondly, there has to be a pledge to end terror in exchange for Palestinian statehood. Given Hamas has stated they do not believe Israel has any right to exist - not in Haifa, Tel Aviv, or West Jerusalem, there is no negotiating, and handing over land to thugs only gives them a launching pad with which to enact terror upon Israel.

THAT is the bottom line. Period. In the meantime, good Palestinians clearly suffer most of all, as they were slaughtered by the Jordanian king in 1970 ("black September") - about 3,000-4,000 slaughtered by an Arab king, and are living in poverty now. Their leaders have taken them hostage, and basically decided rhetoric is better than delivering them an actual state. It is sad, sad, sad.

Meanwhile, kids are being used as suicide bombers. Meanwhile, militants will hide amongst women and children, and then the blame is placed on Israel when the IDF inadvertantly kills women and children. (rather than on the militant/monster)

Terrorism is not the answer to statehood. It is crippling the Palestinian people. It has necessitated a wall which obviously is harmful to the good Palestinians who mean no harm. The solution is simple. Negotiation, honesty, and tolerance is the solution.

THEN, Palestinians will have what they deserve - their own state in the West Bank.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

israelis have sponsered terrorism time and again. even your supreme court has admitted to this.

remember deir yassin, sabra and shatila and the never convicted terrorists begin, sharon, et al?

what is it about their crimes that are different?

why is it that israeli atrocities are not atricities?

israeli murders are not murders?

israeli occupation and theft is not occupation and theft?

an israeli psychopat is not a psychopath?

why is that? because he/she is israeli?

because israelis are inherently superior?

sometime you say no. at other times you say yes.

why is that?

and if, as you say, it is fine for israel to threaten the world with its nuclear arsenal, because, as you say, everyone does this. then they have a deterrent.

all experts including the cia, nsa and others readiliy admit that iran is ten to twelve years from a bomb, if they seek the bomb.

but they need energy, hence nuclear power. they have signed the npt and agree to inspections. something israel will its own words never will do.

why should i implicitly trust israel? i have no reason to. i find their "brutal honesty" as you call it (threatening the world with weapons they do not admit having) brutally disturbing.

iran like iraq has no WMD. i wish they had, so that yet more people would not have to die too appease israeli paranoia. because it seems that the only deterrent capable of stopping these US/israeli crimes against humanity is in fact nuclear weapons.

nor do i see why, exactly, the people of the middle east should be subservient to israel.

you apparently think they should. why is that?

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

the palestinians will have "what they deserve"? they will have what is their right. not what israel thinks "they deserve."

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

JC,

The Palestinians have a right to their own state when they decide to recognize Israel and pledge to end terror. Otherwise, a Palestinian state = a launch pad for terror.

You focus on Israel as a "big bad," and yet you fail to recognize that Jordan killed more Palestinians in 1970 than Israel did - ever!

Moreover, as I have well documented, so-called Israeli "atrocities" are basically the IDF responding to a situation in which Palestinian militants/monsters train CHILDREN to suicide bomb, and/or hide amongst women and children, resulting in civilian deaths when Israel attacks. Why is there NO CALL TO END THAT?

You are frankly mistaken about your characterization about Israeli terror. When people like Baruch Goldstein kill Palestinians as he did, the world, including Israel, condemned him. I condemned him. I condemn any Israel sponsored terror which consists of purposely aiming for civilians. So does the Israeli Supreme Court. So does the Israeli government.

IN CONTRAST! The Palestinians celebrate (and give money to) the families of suicide bombers, who aim for maximum civilian death.

I have no idea how you see what the Palestinians are doing as inherently better.

Israeli occupation of the West Bank is something the nation has TRIED to end - most recently in 2001 with the Barak plan. Yet Arafat refused the plan and failed to come up with any alternative plan. If you think the plan was so bad, then please provide me with an itemized list of what was lacking in the plan. (And do not say "right of return," because we all know that a "right of return" would essentially end Israel)

What are Palestinians? How many existed prior to 1948. Very few. As a point of fact, the UN decided to define a Palestinian national as someone who lived in the area for two years prior to the formation of Israel. This is something it never did in the history of the UN, before or since.

As a point of fact, the settlers of Israel (prior to formation) purchased their land lawfully from absentee landlords.

This is getting us nowhere. Keep on applying your double standards, where Palestinian terrorism is fine, and Israel is the "big bad evil." Really helps your case. *laughs*

For the final record, the "people of the Middle East" have again and again stated their goal is to elliminate Israel off the face of the earth. Israel has correspondingly done no such thing. "The people of the Middle East" have killed more Palestinians than Israel has. "The people of the Middle East" do not give a crap about the Palestinians, except as a tool to prop up corrupt dictatorships. Israel actually is concerned about the well being of Palestinians - having set up schools, universities, hospitals, and the like in the territories.

Palestinians in the TERRITORIES are better educated than most Muslims in the Middle East. They have better health care and longer life spans - DESPITE the so-called "big bad" Israel.

Keep on truckin' with your one-sided look at Israel. Realllly helpful! *laughs*

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

SIDE NOTE: What Israel did in Lebanon in 1982 is not excusable, as it was well documented in several sources that it was not necessary and in fact was borderline state sponsored terror. For the record, they nearly killed Arafat in 1982, but didn't because the U.S. basically told them to back down. This is one example of how Israel does not dictate American policy, but rather, it's the other way around.

I readily acknowledge that Lebanon was not a shining moment in Israeli history. Sure, Sharon is a war criminal. But then, so was Arafat! And at least Sharon, in contrast to Arafat, tried to broker peace at the end of his life, with the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. He was a man of war, but at the end of his life, he tried to broker peace. I have to respect him for that.

The bottom line is that I look at Israel clearly for what it is. You see Israel as evil NO MATTER WHAT IT DOES.

Why do you think Israelis are somehow inferior to the rest of the Middle Eastern nations? Why don't they deserve their own state?

Is it because they give too many rights to their citizens? Is it because it is a true democracy? Is it because it practices religious pluralism? Is it because it has freedom of the press and assembly? Is it because it has national healthcare? Is it because it has one of the most highly developed science programs in the world that produce some of the most important scientific findings in the world?

Are you resentful of the fact that Arab Israelis AND PALESTINIANS IN THE TERRITORIES have longer life spans than Muslims across the Middle East? I think you are.

Why the anti-Israel animus? I am truly curious.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

One more thing to JC.

Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and yet, because they have not threatened to use them, other than as a deterrant, there is no need to try to destroy Pakistani weapons capabilities.

Iran, ON THE OTHER HAND, has made it clear it intends to destroy Israel. I do not think America should go in and bomb nuke facilities. I never stated that. But this gives Israel a good reason to destroy Iranian nuke facilities. (via targeted bombings)

Furthermore, Iran has sponsored a suicide bombing training seminar on Iranian soil. This gives me reason to believe they would pass nuke secrets/technology to terrorists to use - possibly in the US. Frightening thought. IN CONTRAST, as stated earlier - Israel has no such intention of EVER using its nukes - unless absolutely forced to in a use-the-nukes-or-be-destroyed sort of scenario.

That said, the New York Times does have a good piece about why and how war could be avoided.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/opinion/09thur2.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

It gives good reasons why the Russian plan may be the best option.

Now, this article approaches this situation from a perspective that does not start out saying "Israel is evil." It uses logic to explain why the Russian deal is a good one. This goes back to my earlier point about how you accomplish zippo with your biased anti-Israel language, and only entrench my opinions (and for that matter, anyone who disagrees with you) further.

Using logic generally works.

 
At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

TomTom,

The Palestinians are not in concentration camps. That is just...wow. Given my grandmother was actually in a concentration camp, I am well aware of what it means to be in a concentration camp.

As far as Europeans who helped Jews - many did. Most didn't. (save for Denmark)

I am done. You are so clearly biased, there is absolutely no arguing with you. Have a nice life ignoring facts!

Like the fact that Israel has tried again and again to get rid of the territories, and it's the Palestinians themselves who prevent it.

 
At Friday, March 10, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

TomTom,

You are wrong. I know you will be very upset with me now...but I will have to give you some facts. I know facts burn the brain, but nonetheless, they are necessary. ;-)

Firstly, the Palestinians do have freedom of movement. Yes, they have checkpoints, so it takes them a while to get from place to place. But they are not forbidden from movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp

Let me inform you what a concentration camp is.

A concentration camp is a large detention center created for political opponents, enemy aliens, specific ethnic or religious groups, civilians of a critical war-zone, or other groups of people, often during a war. The term refers to situations where the internees are persons selected for their conformance to broad criteria without due process of law by a judiciary, rather than having been judged as individuals. Camps for prisoners of war are usually considered separately from this category, although informally, and in some other languages, they may also be called concentration camps. The word "concentration" indicates a regional concentration, or to collect the group desired, but it also implies the crowded, and often unhealthy, state of the facilities.

Israel is not responsible for the Palestinians being in that area. They are allowed freedom of movement within the territories. (with the checkpoint problem that is of their own making) Furthermore, they are free to go to any country in the world. I happen to know Palestinians here in the U.S. who moved from the territories. Finally, hospitals, schools, and infrastructure exists in the territories. Most of this is funded by Israel. And if the Palestinians have such a horrid situation, then why do they have higher life spans than the rest of the Middle East? (save the main part of Israel)

Israel is trying to make the best of the worst (horrible suicide bombers) situation. Period. The territories are not a concentration camp, and the use of the term "concentration camp" reflects a fundamental ignorance of the situation, and of the meaning of the term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

Facts about the West Bank - backing up what I have to say in general.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/2/DISPUTED%20TERRITORIES-%20Forgotten%20Facts%20About%20the%20We

The following is a Palestinian source which backs up the facts I stated earlier about Palestinian health insurance.

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/pdf/pdf2004/10-Health.pdf

The following Palestinian link backs up what I had to say about education:

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/pdf/pdf2004/9-Education.pdf

The facts are in my favor. I am sorry, because I know that those that oppose Israel hate facts.

But the facts are the facts are the facts.

 
At Friday, March 10, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

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