Targeted killing of Iraqi intellectuals: 2003-2006
[That was then.]No More Mr. Nice Guy: Bush Gets Serious About Killing Iraqis
By Kurt Nimmo, Counterpunch.org, December 21, 2003
When Robert Dreyfuss of the American Prospect asked an unspecified Bush neocon "strategist" how best to deal with the resistance in Iraq, the response he received was chilling, "It's time for 'no more Mr. Nice Guy.' All those people shouting, 'Down with America!' and dancing in the street when Americans are attacked? We have to kill them." It's not only Iraqis dancing in the streets and elusive resistance fighters that deserve to be killed, but pro-Saddam demonstrators as well.
"While Washington and London were still congratulating themselves on the capture of Saddam Hussein," writes Robert Fisk in Baghdad, "US troops have shot dead at least 18 Iraqis in the streets of three major cities in the country. Dramatic videotape from the city of Ramadi 75 miles west of Baghdad showed unarmed supporters of Saddam Hussein being gunned down in semi-darkness as they fled from Americans troops. Eleven of the 18 dead were killed by the Americans in Samarra to the north of Baghdad."
The United States doesn't even pretend to respect the Geneva Conventions these days. Obviously, shooting unarmed demonstrators in the back as they flee is a war crime. But then neocons don't do international law. As Bush has repeatedly made clear, he believes international treaties are for wimps, appeasers, and the irrelevant. International law is for pantywaists such as the French, not intractable and self-righteous Americans engaged in a forever war against "terr'ism," otherwise known as the Islamic religion.
Of course, it's not a war crime if the media reports the murder of unarmed civilians as fair and square combat against "armed demonstrators," as the Boston Globe did. Naturally, the Globe didn't bother to mention the video Robert Fisk witnessed, but then they are receiving their information straight from the Pentagon, not unembedded journalists on the street.
It wasn't the Boston Globe or other members of the Bush Ministry of Disinformation that reported Hussein al-Jaburi's death threat to the people of Tikrit. It was al-Jazeera, the Arab news agency twice bombed by the Pentagon for the heresy of telling the truth. "Any demonstration against the government or coalition forces will be fired upon," said Jaburi, the US-imposed regional governor. "This is a fair warning." So much for democracy - but then the sort of democracy the Bushite neocons have in mind does not include the right to demonstrate.
The Bush version of democracy includes "privatization" of the Iraqi oil industry and other covetable natural resources by foreign transnational corporations, but not the right for Iraqi citizens to complain about it. Grousers and people in possession of Saddam's portrait will be shot.
No more Mr. Nice Guy.
According to Robin Pomeroy of Reuters, demonstrations are illegal in the province surrounding Tikrit. Demonstrators will be sentenced to a year or more in jail. "They are not allowed to go around kissing pictures of Saddam in this city," Lieutenant Colonel Steven Russell told Pomeroy. "It will not happen... We cannot hand out lollipops, it does not work."
Last week [10 Dec. 2003] Iraq's Health Ministry ordered an abrupt end to the count of civilians killed during the invasion and occupation, according to the Associated Press. "We have stopped the collection of this information because our minister didn't agree with it," said Dr. Nazar Shabandar, the Health Ministry's director of planning. "The CPA doesn't want this to be done."
In other words, there will be no official confirmation of the number of civilians killed by the US, such as those mowed down recently in Ramadi, apparently for nothing more than expressing their support for Saddam Hussein, although the Pentagon would have us believe they were engaged in murder and mayhem or releasing pigeons to signal to comrades. Is it possible the CPA and the Pentagon don't want you to know the exact number of people killed in Iraq because those numbers are about to escalate dramatically?
As Robert Fisk notes in his report about the Ramadi mass murder video, masked gunmen have appeared in Baghdad and at road checkpoints outside of Samarra. "They wear militia uniforms and, although they say they are part of the new American-backed 'Iraqi Civil Defense Corps', they have neither badges of rank nor unit markings," writes Fisk. It's no secret the CIA has assassinated numerous Iraqis since Bush set his sights on their country. Recently leaked plans to kill even more, possibly many more, in much the same way the CIA killed 40,000 Vietnamese under the Phoenix program. As Dana Priest of the Washington Post reported on 29 March, CIA covert teams [conducting so-called "preemptive manhunting programs"] are "one feature of the largely invisible war being waged in Iraq by the CIA's and Pentagon's growing covert paramilitary and special operations divisions."
If we are to believe Seymour Hersh over at the New Yorker, the US has summoned the Israelis to help murder Iraqis who resist occupation. "The Israelis have been training us in some of their tactics," Hersh told Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! "By now, we have put together enough sophisticated former Iraqi intelligence [Mukhabbarat] officers, we think, to form ad hoc advisory groups that would travel with our special forces," Hersh explained. "They'll also have an Israeli adviser, I think, pretty much undercover in the country advising them, too. So, that's the next step, you know. Bang, bang, bang."
And yet decades of bangs in the West Bank and Gaza have not put an end to Palestinian resistance to Zionist occupation and brutality. The Palestinians have actively resisted Zionist hyper-colonialism for well over thirty years. There's a good chance they will continue to do so for another thirty years.
The CIA, with Israeli help, will kill more than people directly involved in the resistance. "Compare America's conquest of Iraq with Israeli's conquest of Palestine, and you begin to understand," explains author and researcher Douglas Valentine. "In each case the strategy is massive war crimes on the one hand, and targeted kills of inspirational leaders on the other."
In other words, the CIA hit teams now roaming Iraq will assassinate intellectuals and "inspirational leaders," just as they did in Vietnam under the Phoenix program. "Under Phoenix," writes Valentine, "due process was totally non-existent. South Vietnamese civilians whose names appeared on blacklists could be kidnapped, tortured, detained for two years without trial, or even murdered simply on the word of an anonymous informer." No doubt many Iraqis will face much the same.
It won't be the first time the CIA has targeted civilians in Iraq. In the 1963 military coup that eventually resulted in the US sanctioned dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, the CIA provided lists of "communists" to be slaughtered. According to author Said Aburish (A Brutal Friendship: The West and the Arab Elite, 1997), 5,000 people were killed, including many doctors, lawyers, teachers, and professors who comprised Iraq's educated elite.
"No-one was spared. Even pregnant women and elderly men were killed. Some were tortured in front of their children," writes Mohamoud Shaikh in a review of Aburish's book. "According to the author, Saddam 'had rushed back to Iraq from exile in Cairo [where he labored as a CIA asset] to join the victors... [he] was personally involved in the torture of leftists in the separate detention centers for fellaheen [peasants] and the Muthaqafeen or educated classes.'"
Murder is second nature for Dubya, the son of a former CIA director who targeted over a million people (with the help of Clinton) for death through illegal bombing raids, starvation, and disease in the wake of the first Iraq invasion. As an appointed-president-in-waiting, Bush the Minor sharpened his murderous instincts in Texas by condemning nearly 150 people to death. Now he says he wants the same for Saddam.
"I think he ought to receive the ultimate penalty," Bush told ABC News, "for what he has done to his people... [he is] a disgusting tyrant who deserves justice, the ultimate justice." Ultimate justice, for our Christian Zionist president who spends much of his time marooned in the Old Testament, is nothing short of the death penalty. Indeed, Saddam was "a disgusting tyrant," one enabled by the United States and Europe. The US does not have an aversion to disgusting tyrants per se, so long as they do what they are told and remain obedient clients.
Maybe Bush should call for the execution of William Lakeland, the US assistant military attaché in Baghdad at the time of the coup that eventually brought Saddam to power. Lakeland was the main orchestrator and contact for the Ba'athist thugs the CIA now wants to hunt down and assassinate. If Bush is truly disgusted by the rape rooms and mass graves of Saddam, he would have every person involved in the CIA-sponsored coup arrested, sent before a tribunal, convicted, and executed. At minimum, he should call George Tenet on the carpet and tell him no more Saddams, no more coups, no more mass assassination programs.
Of course, that will never happen. Only clients who run afoul of the Master Plan - making damn sure every profitable corner of the earth is sucked dry by neoliberal exploitation - will be hunted down, rounded up, rushed before a tribunal, and executed (or if lucky slammed into prison like another US client and CIA asset gone bad, Manual Noriega).
The Bushites over at the Pentagon have their work cut out for them. However, a spanking new Phoenix program aimed at Iraqi guerillas, intellectuals, or those who get in the way of what Halliburton and Bechtel want, will not put an end to the resistance, nor will US soldiers cutting down demonstrators "kissing pictures of Saddam" put an end to Iraqi outrage over the occupation and planned looting of their country.
If Bush gleans anything from the Israelis, it should be that brutality in the name of colonialism does not put an end to resistance, it only redoubles it. But then the Israelis do not understand this themselves, so how can we expect them to teach the Americans anything - that is an anything except how to kill people in large numbers. History books are filled with repeated examples of successful resistance to invasion and occupation - from the Persian emperor Darius facing Scythian guerillas to Fulgencio Batista's overthrow by a threadbare group of revolutionaries in Cuba.
But then Bush doesn't bother to read books.
[Kurt Nimmo is a photographer and multimedia developer in Las Cruces, New Mexico. Visit his excellent no holds barred blog at www.kurtnimmo.com/. Nimmo is a contributor to Cockburn and St. Clair's, The Politics of Anti-Semitism. A collection of his essays for CounterPunch, Another Day in the Empire, will soon be published by Dandelion Books.]
[This is now.]
Appeal on assassinated Iraqi academics: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) [BRussels Tribunal 2006]
1. How many Iraqi academics have been killed and when?
2. Is this appeal targeted only to other academics?
3. What goals does this appeal aim to achieve?
4. Who are the academics that have been assassinated?
5. Were the assassinated academics Baathists?
6. What responsibility does the US, and other membersof the Multi-National Force in Iraq, have?
7. You hold the US responsible for protecting Iraqi citizens, including academics. Are you suggesting that US forces are assassinating Iraqi academics?
8. Who is assassinating Iraqi academics?
9. Is the government in Iraq investigating these assassinations?
10. What is the Salvador option?
11. Why is the appeal focused on academics when assassinations are widespread in Iraq?
12. Why is the petition addressed to the Special Rapporteur on Summary Executions?
13. How can the Special Rapporteur on Summary Executions pressure governments to act?
14. What instruments of international law are applicable in the case of assassinated Iraqi academics?
15. Why not take this appeal to the International Criminal Court?
16. Does any other court have jurisdiction relative to assassinated Iraqi academics?
17. Has the Special Rapporteur on Summary Executions visited Iraq?
18. What other channels will be pursued?
19. What actions can I take as an individual in support of this appeal?
20. What is the BRussells Tribunal doing in the background of this appeal?
21. What will happen to the signatory list of the petition?
Related:
Salvador Option: Torture in Iraq
With the ongoing kiloton media bombardment of "let's kill Iranians" drowning out the unembedded facts on the ground the neocon plan (despite their fake contriteness, all smoke and mirrors) is fully on target. Forever war was declared years ago. Any talk of censure or impeachment along democratic lines and according to the rule of law is meaningless when criminals are dictating their own laws: The New World Order: Money and Might makes Right.
As is any talk of governments and nations. The ruling elite knows no bounds. We are now spectators to the end.
They've gone after the Iraqis and they'll be going after Americans. How does it feel?
Update:
The Politics of Anti-Semitism online version.
posted by yusuf chun @ Monday, March 13, 2006
23 Comments:
Blah blah blah "I hate Israel" blah blah blah.
This isn’t an I hate Israel thing. This is reality. Israel is in fact responsible for a lot of things its not taking responsibility for. Then they scream anti Semite when called on their actions. Yet the Israeli government does commit war crimes. For a nation and people who suffered so much through out history they sure didn’t learn anything.
I get tired of the anti Semite catch all used by Israel. It neatly avoids having to take any form or responsibility for their own actions and allows them to continue their own pogrom against the Palestinians. Eventually this will blow up in their own faces. And no amount of screaming anti Semite will save them
Confessions,
Most of the "evidence" of Israel helping the US do the bad described by JC is a conspiracy theory. JC is also the same person who believes Israel was behind 9/11 (or one of the forces, anyway. He believes it is okay to censor the Danish toons, but not the Iranian Holocaust cartoon contest. He believes Israel, leading the US, is pretty much behind most of the bad in the world.
First of all. America is not behind most of the bad in the world. In 1976, the movie Network pretty much hit the nail on the head.
There are no nations; there are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems; one vast, interwoven, interacting, multivaried, multinational dominion of dollars.
The world is a business, Mr. Beale; it has been since man crawled out of the slime. Our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality - one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock - all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused.
The same holds true for the Iraq War. It was not fought to benefit Israel, so much as it was fought to benefit the proft-mongers of the large corporations who have their fingers controlling the world, though admittedly, especially the Bush administration.
We always feared the "tyranny of democracy", but now that it is here, we fail to recognize it. From Tasmanian forests, to depleted fish stocks to global warming, merchants and ideologues contribute to political campaigns. They are driven by very clear goals - profit and niche ideology, and they hold politicians in their pockets.
Nothing but a return to reason and honour can reverse this trend. Whether it is Hitler, Lenin, Mullah Omar, Jim Crow Laws or Sabra/Shatila - anything can be committed in the name of public will.
Western Democracy only survived with the counterweight of Communism. Either the Islamic nations rise up to offer another honourable counterweight, or we are headed for disaster, for there is no other counterweight to the tyranny of democracy.
Akber,
I disagree.
As a matter of fact, Western Democracy flourished during the 1990s, post-communism, and pre-9/11.
I fear both America hoping to impose its will on the Muslim nations, but also the Muslim nations imposing their will on Western nations.
Let's look at the Danish cartoons, as an example. How much was censored since then? Andrew Sullivan, on andrewsullivan.com, has been monitoring the rising self-censorship and outright censorship in response to it all. Then of course, there has been the random acts of terrorism, such as 9/11, Madrid, and the London bombings.
I agree that the West (specifically America and the UK) wants to impose their values on Muslim nations. But then again, the Muslim nations want to impose THEIR will on the Western nations.
A better approach is live and let live.
Let me do what I want, and I will let you do what you want. I may think that women in burkas = abuse of women, but I will let that go on, as long as you don't force ME in a burka. I may think that the voting system in America is fucked beyond belief, but as long as it is not sent over to the Muslim nations, no harm.
The problem is that there is no "live and let live" when a college of corporations control the world.
Miss R
Do a web search for the Northwoods Plan. If the US gov was willing to do that theyd be willing to do anything.
Also in what way is the Muslim world imposing itself on America ? Other than bush blaming them for 9/11. Too many questions have been left unanswered for 9/11.
Politically I am an anarchist. I don’t believe in governments. Our system of consumption is what is killing us all. Its based in greed and nothing to do with enlightenment. Our way of life is unsustainable. Change or die, it really is that simple.
The garb you see Muslim women wearing today came about as a result of an invasion and the raping of their women. Specifically the good looking ones. Since this garb hides their faces and bodies it was harder to pick out the beautiful women in a crowd and rape them.
Miss R, I think it's contradictory to on the one hand say: "There are no nations; there are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems" and on the other hand call anti-whateverism whenever Israelis are mentioned in a negative context. Either you draw the line around states or around individuals, but you can't have it both ways. And it certainly is indicative of a knee-jerk defense mechanism that you would equate criticism of individuals with criticism of whole states if they happen to be Israeli.
Let go of this selective perception.
For the record, JC criticized the state of Israel and the nation of America.
I have nothing against criticizing an individual Israeli or individual American, and do it all the time. This is seperate and distinct from whether America is the evil or Israel is evil. I happen to love America and love Israel the concept (not a nation I have visited, so I cannot say the country). I take issue with certain leaders of both nations and certain practices of both nations.
JC is the knee jerk reactionist who - at every turn - speaks of the war against Islam while forgetting that the terrorists are staging their own war.
Furthermore, it's not even "America" or "Israel" that are running the show - it's corporations.
And to say the terrorists were set up on 9/11 is bullcrap. I have read all the conspiracy theory sites. I am sorry, the evidence clearly points to terrorists who hijacked the planes. I know this disappoints you.
miss r said" "For the record, JC criticized the state of Israel and the nation of America."
jc said (in his post) if anyone had bothered to read it:
"As is any talk of governments and nations. The ruling elite knows no bounds."
yet another lie.
Miss R, from my perspective it's not jc who's being reactionary, it's yourself. Sorry. Furthermore, I happen to have been thoroughly researching 9/11 over the last months and there is no doubt whatsoever that "the terrorists", in case we're speaking of fanatical Muslims, were in fact NOT the perpetrators. Patsies, yes; masterminds, no.
It's evident that 3 buildings were brought down by controlled demolition that day, most evident in the case of WTC7. This is reality, come to grips with it.
I think we can all agree that it's simply idiotic to categorize entire nations of countless individuals as this or that, excluding "human". The indications that jc did so nonetheless are nonexistant, as far as I can tell. To me, and I'm just being honest, it appears as if you, like too many people I know, exhibit double standards when it comes to Israel/Judaism. Knee-jerk reflexes dismissing any and all criticism of anything related, for no rational reason at all.
This won't get us anywhere...
There is no imposition required, but repulsion through mutual respect.
It was the fear of communism and grudging respect for its ideals that led to trade unions and the New Deal. Once Communism was gone, trade unions are gone, and social security is being gutted, minimum wage is frozen, credit companies milking every last penny, etc. etc.
I am not a mullah, but the only "system-not-worshipping-greed" alternative left in the world is Cuba, the Vatican or some Islamic systems. China and Russia have succumbed.
Concepts of Islamic egalitarianism, non-racism and economic redistribution have a lot to offer to the world, and they are unchangeable tenets and cannot be lobbied out of existence. The same can be said for Hinduism, Buddhism or Catholicism, but they have been put on the back burner by their adherents.
Regarding burka, it is not a tenet of Islam but a feature of certain cultures. Even after "liberation" of Afghanistan, the same burka rules there - but hold on - more drug dealers and kidnappers also, and poppy growers. In some other countries it is known as jilbab. BTW, the 2006 designer fashion trends are all Islamic-influenced, to the horror of some :) Next year will not be the same - but that is what I mean by counterweight -- an alternative to insane envelope-pushing greed and depravity.
Please be careful when parrotting MSM - just take a little pause to reflect on the cliches. The audience here seems very informed.
jc, this post is stunning (and horrifying) in the brazen brutality it reveals.
It's hard to believe that while our boy president speaks of freedom and equality that his goons are out there brutalizing and murdering innocents in cold blood.
confessions, lumos, I agree that the official story about 9/11 does not begin to answer a fraction of the questions left unanswered. It's an absurd to suggest that this infantile theory should be accepted as the truth.
confessions, your theory on the burkas is right on target. There is nothing wrong with burkas when they serve the purpose of protecting women from sexual predators.
akber, you are absolutely right, a society based on greed and exploitation is, like confessions points out, unsustainable. It must be countered by principles that allow for sustained co-existence among people on the earth. The only other option is mutual annihilation and depletion/destruction of the natural resources we need to survive.
I see burkas as basically symbolizing the fact that women are to be neither seen nor heard in the Middle East. If an individual woman wants to wear it, there is nothing I can do (nor should do) to stop her. But the system itself reflects a male dominance, where only men are worthy of being seen. I am not parrotting the MSM when I say this about burkas.
And I am sorry, QRS. Women have sex drives and enjoy sex. And so saying that women should not be seen by men so as to "shield" them from the sexual advances of men, frankly, only tells half the picture of what human biology reflects.
Women, furthermore, are just as worthy of being seen by men other than their husbands as men are. Yet they are not with the system of burkas.
I did not know the foundation of burkas. But the current practice is simply cruel. (even if many women impose it on themselves, it reflects a culture I simply do not understand and dread by spread to the West)
As far as the towers. I admit it is POSSIBLE they were brought down by controlled demolition, however, this conspiracy theory whereby Israel/the US "of course" planned it...whoa. Not buying it - even if you al do buy it. (and I did read up on all the reports you linked) There is a scientific reason for why WTC7 fell - fires from the underground of the Towers spread to WTC7, which was connected to the two towers. (remember - there was a smoldering for months after 9/11) The fires burned away at the foundation of WTC7 until it fell.
This works for me.
Was Bush criminally negligent? Yes. Was he responsible for the bombings? All signs I have read point to no.
Akber,
Your vision of Islam as a force of good around the world is certainly a positive thing. If indeed it takes that shape, it would not be bad.
What I worry about is that the bad foreign policy of America in the Middle East may be counteracted by a bad foreign policy of Islamic nations in the West. And then nobody wins. The concepts of egalitarianism and economic redistribution are good ones...but what about censorship and poor treatment of women? What if only the latter spread to the west, and not the former?
This is my fear, as it seems only the bad aspects of Western culture have spread to the Middle East, and not the good aspects.
Miss R
I agree with you that for a very long time the treatment on women (everywhere) has been horrible. I don't agree with the seen and not heard mentality. I grew up with 3 sisters. I know for a fact they have brains and the ability to reason. Anyone who claims otherwise is deceiving themselves.
I remember listening to a radio program on the rolls between the sexes and how they have changed through out time.
One example given was a letter that was written by a man to another fellow. The writer was furious that someone (a male) had taken advantage of his sister and he was gonna kick some ass over it. This led me to believe that the sister had been sexually assaulted. It turns out that what the assailant had done was ask for – but did not receive – a kiss. That letter was written in America c.1910. Not all that long ago. Voting rights for women are a recent thing – at least in modern history. Things are indeed improving and there is indeed room for more improvement. Yes women enjoy sex, the days of “lay back and think of England” are over – thank god.
I have dated a woman from the Middle East. She was from Turkey. She chose not to wear the burkas. She was a mix of Western and Middle Eastern ideals. I learned a lot from her and her point of view. She was a Muslim but she was also trying to fit into her adopted country. It was a difficult balance for her.
We must not lose sight that people are free to chose to accept or reject our cultural ideals. There are many problems with Western Culture, or to quote Gandhi when asked by a journalist what he thought about Western Civilization, Gandhi replied, "I think it would be a good idea." The same could be said about our culture. We seem to think that our way is the only way. It isn't. Our culture is very destructive. To the environment, and to our relationship within our own families. A lot of other cultures wouldn’t conceive of letting another family member go homeless or go without food. For many people in our culture it isn't a big deal. The feeling is the lazy bum should get a job and take care of themselves. Who is right ? If western culture is the end all and be all of cultural experience then we’re in deeper shit that we know.
As for 9/11 the hole in the Pentagon was 20ft across. The wing span of a 757 is 125 ft. You do the math. The “skidding plane” left no skid marks on the grass. There was no damage to WTC7 yet it fell into its own foot print. It did so just hours after the collapse of the other two buildings. This is the 3rd time in the history of building fires that this has occurred. Occasion’s number 1 and 2 were the WTC buildings. In fact it would be the 3rd time in history that a building such as these collapsed because of fires. Jet fuel burns at 2000 F. Steel melts at almost 3000 F again you do the math. In order to even weaken the steel it would according to the underwriters of the building need to burn for several hours. The twin towers collapsed before this time was up. Next where was your airforce ? I grew up by a NORAD base. I’ve seen jets scramble. They can scramble an entire air base worth of planes in less than 3 mins. In fact at bases where there is fighter jets there is ALWAYS fighters on alert. This means that the fighter is armed and ready to take off – with a pilot in sitting in the plane – 24 hrs a day 7 days a week. Those planes far out class anything commercial in both speed and maneuverability. Yet for 40 mins the most heavily guarded air space in the world had no fighter coverage. I’d sure like to know why.
Associating any single culture or dress code or mating behaviour with a religion is asinine and not even worth discussing. When I talk about the Torah - you panic and distance yourself. And burka is not even a universally accepted Islamic injunction. And even if it is, take 5 minutes to understand the culture. Jeez.
Miss R, your insistent diatribe is illogical and an example of fact-distortion that Islam-haters use to not discuss the facts. 9/11, burka, etc. I wish you had watched that "30 days" before commenting on it. By raising these cliches, you are proving your mental incapacity to address issues on their worth.
Women were sexual beings throughout history - one would be a fool to deny nature - so you make up assumptions and then attack them. wow. Societies have regulated the amount and degree of sexual mixing and each society comes up with its own rules.
Why do you have men's and women's restrooms? Why do women put on make-up? Expose skin? Why do women generally wait for men to propose? Advance? Ask out? There is a natural aggressiveness/passiveness (pursuit/decoration) in the male/female of the human species respectively - and that is not gonna change any time soon. Other species have it reversed (like the peacock). The Victorians handled it differently, the Scandinavians handled it in another way. Similarly, the Jews, Muslims, Orthodox Christians etc. handled it in various ways.
Go force your beloved promiscuity solution on a society subsisting at less than $1 a day and see the consequences. Unfortunately, it can be seen in Botswana, South Africa and many parts of AIDS-stricken lands where Western promiscuity transplanted the local culture without the financial backing (separate homes, hygiene, welfare, drugs, etc.) Close your eyes for 5 minutes and imagine the suffering - or look up the suffering being caused. Promiscuity requires financing to take care of the consequences. Other than that, it is just another way of life and Nordic nations have been living it for centuries.
You do a disservice to your intelligence by knee-jerk responses parrotted through a media-washed brain. Ever studied the culture you so disparage? My mom wore the jilbab all her life - even now - has a Masters - founded and ran a school for 20 years, raised a bunch of kids, and in retirement in a Western country now, has won three community awards in five years from the mayor of a major city. At the awards ceremony, she did not shake hands with males - and you know who refused to shake hand with females - a Jewish man. :)
In her community service, she helps the elderly to lobby government for housing and activity centers. Do you know the first question elderly Italian ladies whispered to her when she first went to the community center - "does your husband beat you?" - she then she held a seminar about misconceptions. My dad was invited who jokingly said "i am married to the most wonderful woman in the world". My mom still wears the jilbab.
Please take a moment to use your intelligence before mouthing off. I can reel off statistics about women/abuse, spousal assault, STDs, unwanted pregnancies (total cost on society) off the top of my head. "Friends" and Manhattan is not the only aspect of Western society. The ghettos of Brooklyn and the Bronx are bigger aspects of Western society (in terms of numbers). I have lived there - I can discuss that too - at length - and its cost.
Why is their Islamophobia that you parrot, and which is wink/nod by the American regimes:
"At present, the number of Muslims in the United States is estimated to be on the order of between 5 to 8 million. It is the fastest growing faith in this country. Estimates indicate that by the year 2000, the number of Muslims in the United States will be greater than that of the Methodists, and that by the year 2010 the number will have doubled to 10 to 16 million. The estimated conversion rate among Americans is 135,000 per year. The Defense Department reports that there are now approximately 9000 Muslims on active duty in the U.S. armed services (it is reported that more than 3000 Americans embraced Islam during the Gulf war alone). A vast network of Muslim ministries also caters to some 300,000 converts in prisons, with an estimated conversion rate of 35,000 per year.
"The predominant group among Muslims in the United States are Afro-Americans. The immigrant communities, which come from a great variety of countries stretching from Eastern Europe to Cambodia and virtually every country in between, comprise the next largest group. The student community is the third largest group. Finally, Caucasian and other ethnic Americans comprise the smallest group, but this too is growing at a fast rate."
Also, before you worry about women who choose to wear burqa or chador or hijab or scarf etc. --
Educate yourself on the dire plight of women in Thailand, Phillipines, Russia, Bangladesh and India - and the sale and trafficking of girls.
Educate yourself on the 50 million girls killed so far -- before and after birth -- in India. And, female feticide in China. This is leading to huge demographic changes. In India, there is a "boy charge" that is actually developed on a spreadsheet and factors in inches of height, job prospects, income etc. and the girl's father has to pay it to get the girl married. This is not yesterday, this is today. And if the boy and his family think they can extract more, they will torture or even kill the bride to extract more money from the girl's father. Some boys and their families will embark on "serial marriages" of this type to accumulate wealth. This is not isolated - this is over the WHOLE society - with killings and maimings in the hundreds of thousands per year. And the method of choice is "kitchen accident" : burning. And the system and the Hindu religion tolerate it.
Those require your empathy with women much more than the few burqa-clad women in the world who despite their lack of freedom, live in the protection and custody of matrimonial homes with loving families around them.
Miss R, let's see a post on it. But you will not obsess over it - why? Because India and China have embraced Western ideology - while Islam has not. That is what I meant by "counterweight".
Miss R: "There is a scientific reason for why WTC7 fell - fires from the underground of the Towers spread to WTC7, which was connected to the two towers. (remember - there was a smoldering for months after 9/11) The fires burned away at the foundation of WTC7 until it fell.
This works for me."
Uhm, it works for a lot of americans as well. However, this does not imply that it works for reasonable, informed people. It does not. So, who to invade next?
And forget about Bush. Legally, he might be responsible, but isn't it obvious that he's really just the neocon-american joe interface muppet? His incompetence is supposed to reflect upon the entire administration to discredit any suspicions of subversive, yet intelligent actions such as fabricating 9/11.
Do yourself a favor and have another, closer look at the issues surrounding that day. I propose you start here or, in case you rather watch movies, here and here. I have some scientific education, physics primarily, and I can vouch for controlled demolitions. 9/11 was such a fundamental turning point that its actual meaning must be understood to correctly interpret what came out of it, which is quite a lot.
Wow. Such thoughtful and insightful comments.
It's reassuring and inspiring to know that there are still people out there who THINK.
And it's just the beginning. More and more people are seeing through the lies of the media. Things are changing.
We just have to hang in there and keep blogging - drawing people's attention to the wealth of information that has been painstakingly collected at this site and others like it.
It can happen, and will happen. With the help of God and eachother, the truth will no longer be a dirty secret. It will assume its rightful glory as the reality to which we must adhere to survive.
QRS,
You really think GOD will do anything?
Sorry, I do not see God/Allah/the spaghetti monster in the sky to really care one iota what humans do.
Akber,
Read again what I said on the board over and over and over and over.
I believe in live and let live. Let a woman wear a burka if she so wants to. I am not saying she should be FORCED into other clothing. But at the same time, I view it as anti-woman.
I do not advocate FORCING my culture on anyone! I am against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and also the general Mid East policy of the US. I never ONCE said women should be forced from burkas.
And a burka is the least of the examples of how Islamic women do have very little rights. (in certain nations - not all)
If an Islamic woman commits adultery, she is killed. If she is raped, she is killed - honor killing. If someone is gay - they are killed. This is a good thing? I think not. (NOTE: I do not say that all of the Middle East or Islam is represented by this - but MUCH IS)
I also never said that burkas were seen all over the Middle East, because I realize they are not.
I fail to see why it is so difficult to see that yes, certain Islamic nations do have real human rights problems with women.
I am not saying all Islamic husbands beat their wives. I am not saying that all wives are slaves.
NOTE: I do not say things are perfect in America.
And re: the STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Most of this is due to poverty and a poor education, and NOT because of a "culture of promiscuity." Let's get real. What's necessary to end THAT is real aid to blighted communities, as well as better sexual education.
I fail to see how the problem is "the culture of promiscuity" that I advocate. I first of all DO NOT advocate such a culture. I advocate the freedom to decide for oneself, with proper education, what is best. This is a bad thing???
Nothing mentioned by you is part of Islam. If you are stooping to a comparison of crime and sentencing between countries (honour killing, mitigating circumstances, crimes of passion) I can debate you there till the cows come home - the frequency of such crimes, the sentences and the social benefits and drawbacks. All study in law is the balancing of the rights of the individual and society.
That all I can debate. What I cannot is the phantoms created by the media by continued repetition.
All you did was divert discussion from a serious subject to absurd discussion by involving crimes.
I have successfully debated these issues many times in the past. But the moment you hear a good word about Islam, your knee-jerk reaction is "burqa, honour killing".
Part of the Internet Hagana I guess. Sorry to repeat what JC says, but it was beneath you to bring up unrelated topics as "facts". None of them is a fact.
The saddest part probably is: the next time you hear a good word about the economic or social teachings of Islam, you will say "burqa - honour killing". Yet, when the crimes of Jews are held against them, you will say "unfair".
So, pick a platform for future discussion - religion (lets start quoting Torah and Quran and Bible) -- or countries (let's compare national statistics) -- or cultures (European Nordic, European Mediterranean, Slavic, North American, Latin American, Indian, Chinese, Maghreb, Arabian, Levant, Iranian, Japanese etc.)
Taking a crime in some countries, applying it to a religion, then jumping to various cultures - only shows confusion and a very biased twisted mind. It is exactly the same problem that Jew-haters have - identical problem - confusing the Jewish faith, Jewish culture and Zionism and Israel.
Akber,
First of all. I do not wish to engage in a comparison of the Koran and the Torah, because I do not even believe in the Torah. (so I see no reason to debate which one is more valid)
Second of all. I have repeatedly stated that I think Islam does have positive attributes. It does have the attributes of egalitarianism and kindness.
THAT SAID. My fear is that the WORST aspects of Islam and ONLY the worst aspects will be translated to other cultures, rather than the BEST.
I do not see this as "Islamophobia."
I am not saying all Muslims are terrorists. I do not think there should be racial profiling at airports, etc. I think most Muslims are peaceful.
BUT THERE IS ALSO THE OTHER SIDE OF THINGS.
There are honor killings, there is the subjugation of women. NOTE: I am not even saying honor killings are mainstream or common. But I fear that this BAD ELEMENT of Islam is what will be passed to the West, and NOT the good elements.
I fail to see how this is Islamophobia.
And much of the badness of Islam is reflected in a badness in religion overall, and is not unique to Islam. (which, as a secular humanist, I tend to take issue with)
One side note which I have to particularly applaud Muslims for: at least they eat better than Christians! Halal food (which is similar to kosher food) is simply healthier and tastier than most Western garbage that is consumed. I can well atest to this. I had a horrible case of food poisoning this weekend and had to be rushed to the hospital. I would certainly prefer a world which reflected the cleanliness standards of Muslims. (and find it sad that the stereotype is that Muslims are dirty, when they are far from it)
My airline profiles all say "kosher" and the look on the faces of the steward(esse)s when they bring the meal is worth the extra effort itself.
This morning I arrived in Dubai - and I fall in love with this place each time I visit. I rented a car from Hertz, said my prayers at the airport mosque (what a combination) and on my way to the trade show, got cut off twice by tinted-window luxury cars - on closer inspection driven by Emirati women (rumour has it that only Emirati citizens can tint car windows). The customs officer was also Emirati. All Emirati men clad in white from head to toe, and women clad in black from head to toe. There is little to choose between the modest clothing of both sexes except a few women have face coverings.
Those Emirati women who work are mostly in government (being citizens). Front-end jobs are all taken by British, Czech, Romanian, Russian, Filipino, Indian, Indonesian and Chinese women.
Next to my convention hall was a flower trade show organized by a German company. I went to browse - and found Emirtati men and women signing deals. It was apparent that some of the merchants buying were women as they were discussing while the men stood by.
Tomorrow there is a Viennese ball in Dubai, with "debutant couples" and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra.
http://www.gulfnews.com/eplus/Events/10023960.html
After Vienna and New York, Dubai is only the third official venue in the world to host the Opera Ball.
If I had money, I would buy a ticket for one couple from every US town and city to come to Dubai - this place is out of this world. I would not be exaggerating if I said that it is the most vibrant, bold, growing global metropolis in the world today where everyone is welcome and all cultures blend in the utmost tolerance.
Note: very little interest-based lending :) going on in the construction industry.
Akber,
My best friend visited Dubai and fell in love with the city. My first (and only :-( ) love also moved to Dubai and now lives there permanently.
Smart choice to be kosher. As it is, airline food is frightening. Kosher food (as we know, similar to halal) simply has to be less frightening. It is a shame they don't offer halal food on the plane, though really, the only difference between the two that I know of is that a different prayer is said when the animal is killed.
Glad you are having a good time over there. It is supposed to be one of the world's great cities. It is on the list of places I mean to visit.
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