< HOME  Thursday, April 20, 2006

Damning Evidence of ‘Big Oil’ Conspiracy To Limit Supply

“As observed over the last few years and as projected well into the future, the most critical factor facing the refining industry on the West Coast is the surplus refining capacity, and the surplus gasoline production capacity. The same situation exists for the entire U.S. refining industry. Supply significantly exceeds demand year-round. This results in very poor refinery margins, and very poor refinery financial results. Significant events need to occur to assist in reducing supplies and/or increasing the demand for gasoline.”
--Internal Texaco document, March 7, 1996
“A senior energy analyst at the recent API (American Petroleum Institute) convention warned that if the U.S. petroleum industry doesn’t reduce its refining capacity, it will never see any substantial increase in refining margins…However, refining utilization has been rising, sustaining high levels of operations, thereby keeping prices low.”
--Internal Chevron document, November 30, 1995
Excerpts from The Oil Industry, Gas Supply and Refinery Capacity: More Than Meets the Eye (PDF), a 2001 investigative report by Senator Wyden of Oregon outlining how, over a period of ten years, Big Oil companies orchestrated the current crisis in oil prices.
The oil industry and its allies would have the public believe that insufficient refining capacity, restrictive environmental standards, growing gasoline demand and OPEC production cutbacks are the primary reasons for the current oil and gas supply problem.

However, the record shows – supported by documents I have obtained – that . . . major oil companies pursued efforts to curtail refinery capacity as a strategy for improving profit margins; that competing oil companies worked together to subvert supply; that refinery closures inhibited supply; and that oil companies are reaping record profits, yet may benefit from a proposed national energy policy that would offer financial incentives to expand refinery capacity. [!!!]

* * *
[T]he nation’s major oil suppliers have set out in a strategic effort to orchestrate a financial triple play, a coordinated effort that would reduce supply, raise prices at the pump and relax environmental regulations. Unfortunately, in each case, it is the consumer who takes the hit.

While the documents target activity on the West Coast and refinery closings in 11 states, they point to practices with significant national ramifications. The companies involved are national companies that operate in multiple states. In addition, gas and oil is a fungible commodity and the amount of capacity that has been taken offline is significant enough to affect national markets.
In his report, Senator Wyden made the following findings (abbreviated):
  • FINDING 1: Oil Companies Articulated their “Need” to Reduce Oil and Gas Supply to Increase Prices and Grow Profit Margins
  • Not only did the oil companies view excess refining capacity as a financial liability, they openly suggested that eliminating the excess capacity and tightening supply would help improve their bottom line.

    [D]ocuments show that oil companies had the intent and motive to hamstring supply and reduce refining capacity. Subsequent events show that they acted [based on that intent].
  • FINDING 2: Oil Company Competitors Planned Opportunities to Subvert Oil and Gas Supply . . .
  • “ARCO represents an important part of Tosco=s business. We want to do everything we can to nurture this important business relationship and make sure it keeps up the tradition of being mutually beneficial.”
    --Thank you note to ARCO Exec. VP James A. Middleton from Tosco CEO Thomas O’Malley, April 25, 1994
    “… explore whether or not there was any mutual benefit, any mutual interest, any profit for both ARCO and Tosco to find a way to have ARCO purchase or Tosco sell CARB [cleaner burning California Air Resources Board] gasoline to ARCO, recognizing that the agreement that was in place at that time did not provide for the supply of CARB gasoline.”
    --Summary of Deposition of William C. Rusnack, President of ARCO Products Co., taken May 15, 1997
    “And he, as I recall, confirmed their interest …and if we can reach a commercial agreement with them, that he felt, you know, this could change some of their investment decisions or change investment decisions of others on supplying CARB gasoline.”
    --Summary of Deposition of Cecil Blackwell, Senior Chevron Official, taken February 19, 1997

    * * *

    [M]ajor oil and gas companies supplying CARB gas to the California market entered into 44 supply-sharing agreements . . . to control the quantity of CARB gas on the market, reduce efforts to expand CARB refining capacity, limit imports of CARB gas and discourage excess CARB gas from being sold on the spot market to independent purchasers.

    Exxon, ARCO, Chevron, Shell, Texaco, Tosco and Unocal all entered into such supply-sharing agreements with at least one of their competitors.

    * * *

    In February 1993, Mobil, Texaco and Chevron (with the financial support of Exxon) filed a lawsuit to overturn the small refiners’ exemption to the CARB gas program, reducing the ability of small refiners to compete in the CARB gas market.

    * * *
    “If Powerine re-starts and gets the small refiner exemption, I believe the CARB market premium will be impacted. Could be as much as 2-3 cpg (cents per gallon)…The re-start of Powerine, which results in 20-25 TBD (thousand barrels per day) of gasoline supply . . . could . . . effectively set the CARB premium a couple of cpg lower . . . Needless to say, we would all like to see Powerine stay down. Full court press is warranted in this case.”
    --Internal Mobil Corp. E-mail regarding Powerine refinery, February 6, 1996

    The Powerine Oil Company refinery closed in 1995.
  • FINDING 3: Closing Refineries: Oil Companies Act to Inhibit Supply
  • Since 1995, 24 refineries have closed, including refineries in California, Illinois, Arizona, Oklahoma, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, Michigan and Washington (the Tosco refinery has subsequently reopened), taking nearly 830,000 barrels a day of refining capacity offline. While capacity at some existing refineries expanded during this time, the fact is that more capacity would exist if these refineries were still operating.
  • FINDING 4: Record Profits: Oil Companies Reap Benefit of Higher Prices at Pump
  • Despite complaints indicting the cost of environmental compliance and manufacturing “boutique” fuels, in the [year] 2000 the oil and gas industry enjoyed record profits that reflect record gas prices.

    According to Texaco’s 2000 Annual Report, the company’s production steadily decreased from 1998 to 2000, yet its net income more than quadrupled during the same period – with Texaco posting well above $2.4 billion in net income in 2000.

    Among these four companies alone [Texaco, Chevron, ExxonMobil, and BP Amoco], profits for the year 2000 increased by over $22 billion dollars in one year. In light of these substantial profits, oil industry claims that they cannot afford to comply with environmental regulations or expand their refining capacity lack credibility.
  • FINDING 5: National Energy Policy Incentivizes Oil Companies to Expand Refinery Capacity
  • The Bush administration’s National Energy Policy, released in May, points to lagging profit margins and costly environmental regulations during the past decade as the reason for lost refinery capacity. The report also states that, “excess capacity may have deterred some new capacity investments in the past,” and that “more recently, other factors, such as regulations, have deterred investments.” . . .

    [Bush's recommended policies] will reward the same oil companies who perpetuated the gasoline supply crunch, [who already enjoy] record profits because of their actions, [with] even higher profits by recognizing the cost savings of relaxed environmental standards.

    As a result, oil and gas profits would continue to rise, the public would be saddled with the costs of dirtier air, and consumers would remain unprotected from high gas prices.
How's that for a triple play?
  1. Reduce supply,
  2. Exploit the crisis, then
  3. Demand incentives to increase supply again!
Now, that your blood is boiling, let's start our own little national conspiracy.

Here's the plan:
  1. Impeach Cheney
  2. Impeach Bush
  3. Demand a Public Accounting of Big Oil Profits

62 Comments:

At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Oh there definitely is a Big Oil conspiracy. This is not even a secret...anyone who has been following the industry since the 70's is well aware of it all.

The question is what do we do about it? How do we impeach the prez and vice prez with a Repug Senate?

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

Ride a bike.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

vper1 said...

"Ride a bike."

And, get hit by a car.

That's not to say I think cars are good.

Local economies for living and mass transit for travel is the solution.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Social Democracy Now said...

Good job uncovering these documents!

By the way, I recall reading that around 1998 Bush gave a foreign policy presentation to a top lobby group (I can't remember which, but it could have been an oil-related group) whose contents were never made public. Apparently a cassette recording was made of the talk, but it soon disappeared, and everything about the meeting was very hush hush. I wonder if this might be useful lead for people interested in clarifying the Middle East issue.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Jason L said...

Personal Rapid Transit is a good start to a solution.
www.skywebexpress.com

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger borkafatty said...

COAL LIQUEFACTION!

For decades the technology has existed to clean the impurities out of coal leaving a clear liquid that will burn practically pollution free for roughly half the cost of today’s energy prices. The Governor of Montana was on Sixty Minutes a few weeks ago doing his best to introduce the public to the future of the coal industry. I have also heard the Governor of West Virginia on TV saying the same things. These two states are willing to bend over backwards to work with anyone looking to fund these projects. There is a developmental timeline of 7-10 years before this process actually becomes a reality to fuel our homes and automobiles. This lag time is the reason that we as American Citizens must learn and educate ourselves to the truth of alternatives so that this process can begin as soon as possible. Where do you think oil prices will be in 5-10 years? This is a horrible situation that will only get worse with time. People, this is a no brainier and our nation should do everything it can to promote and develop this alternative as quickly as possible.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Christopher said...

Daryl Bradford Smith does a good interveiw with Chuck Butler from Kitco.com about the commodity market.

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmithInterviewsButler.html

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Borkafatty said: "These two states are willing to bend over backwards to work with anyone looking to fund these projects."

I know who can fund it! Move over Bankers - "We the People" are going to make our own money again!

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Coal liquification? Reference someone other than a governor, especiall the crook from Montana. Politicians are not scientists. We'd be better off weaning ourselves from this energy addiction than looking for alternative energies. We'll be building nuclear plants, degrading croplands for biodiesel and ethanol, clearcutting forests for palm oil, and on and on in the near future because we're so damn lazy, spoiled, and down right arrogant.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger borkafatty said...

I found that article at financialsence

by the way you have made it mainstream I am happy to say!

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger borkafatty said...

Anonymous said...Reference someone other than a governor, especiall the crook from Montana. Politicians are not scientists.


agreed!!!!!!!!!

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous pizza said...

"Ride a bike."

Yeah, because riding a bike in Minnesota during the winter is just such a realistic option.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Marc said...

There is a movement coming called "Citizen Governance"
It is based on excercizing the unalianable rights which populate the Constitution declaration of independence and bill of rights.
patience perseverence and persitence are the hallmarks, also a believe in the possibility of success is important. Start small be sincere and follow though

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

The "Plan" Most Precisely
(Mighty Thor, 21 Apr 06)

The "plan" for liberation, as against Bush II, "neo-cons" (Jews), and oligarchs, must begin fm "grassroots" and hence reversion to original method of election of US Senators--by state legislatures--this is just one incremental step within a larger concrete, practical, hence political "plan," as I say. And this concrete political itself fits within a larger abstract context: reason, antisemitism, Christian aesthetic, the great trinity.

Ultimate goal is to smash the Federal Reserve Bank counterfeiting conspiracy--this will constitute liberation then for the people, esp. the white volk, native people of the USA. Others will benefit too, but reason and realism requires non-whites (and non-Christians) cannot be included as equal citizens with the great white volk, naturally.

This concrete, practical, political plan then must be carried within a larger, abstract spirit and aesthetic cultural mentality which must include most absolute ANTISEMITISM. What then is the positive part-component for this large abstract-aesthetic cultural mentality?--it could only be Christianity, but again, rationalistic (hence then, logically, antisemitic).

CONCLUSION: The beauty of the "plan" is it actually fits in with reality so well and easily, the natural antisemitism among the volk growing evermore, becoming evermore popular all by itself, the Jews not able to hide their criminality, especially with the present tool of truth, called the internet. The more the Jews (and their gentile accomplices) "succeed," the more they reduce themselves to the absurd. Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

So what, pray tell, do you propose to do with us "non-white, non-Christian" volk?

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger jomama said...

Get a donkey.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Qrswave, what would u Muslims do to us who don't belong in Muslim lands? Qrswave, u don't belong here as Arab, as Muslim: u cannot be a citizen, cannot have the vote or the right to hold office. We owe u nothing; this is our land, the USA. U need to get real.

U'll understand better, I'm sure, as the necessity of antisemitism becomes evermore clear to u. Don't doubt Jews, ultimately, saw to the bringing of u people here to USA whence u've now become so dis-oriented and confused. What do u think we white Christians should do with u? Thor

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

"What do u think we white Christians should do with u?"

Come on, give me a break. I asked first. Besides, you're the one who proposed inequality. I want to hear what's on your mind.

"this is our land, the USA."

Remind me how you got to 'own' this land . . . by doing to native americans what Zionists are doing to Palestinians today?

BTW, I live, I breathe, I'm real. Like it, or not.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Um, Thor, America originally was the land of Native Americans. Their skin color was closer to QRS's than to your's. I want to add that Muslims have made some amazing contributions to this nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Muslims

Says you that it is a "White Christian land." I guess the first amendment is...extraneaous? A "Jew conspiracy?" And what form of Christianity is "true Christianity?" Are Mormons allowed to live in America? What about Baptists? Catholics? Episcopalians? You cannot even define what Christianity is!

Btw, some of the greatest patriots in the Revolutionary War were in facts JEWS.

Hyam Solomon - pretty much financed the Revolutionary War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haym_Salomon

Francis Salvador - "Paul Revere of the South"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Salvador

In fact, Israel Bissell actually was the real person who warned the "British are coming."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Bissell

My own grandfather fought for this country in WWII. He should be kicked out?

Your logic is non-logic and nonsensical, as per usual.

I now expect one of your typical responses: "Jews Miss R is delusional" along with links to disinfo sites.

Whatever. Deny reality some more.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

And QRS, actually, you are engaging in truth stretching.

Most of America - not all, but most - was forcibly taken by the Native Americans.

Most of the main part of Israel was lawfully purchased by Israelis.

Big difference.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

"lawfully purchased?"

What? with some "lawful" funny money, right after they were terrorized by the irgun and stern gangs?

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Reason, Reality: Requirements For Knowledge, Along Honesty
(Mighty Thor, 21 Apr 06)

Do not doubt for a second: Jews must be totally, completely, and absolutely exterminated, without the slightest doubt or hesitation. Jews are liars and murderers by habit and religion, Talmudists (and co-racialists) holding themselves co-equal, even superior, to God. (See Michael A. Hoffman II's "Judaism's Strange Gods," and other works.) Thus u're refuted, "Miss R." Jews must be confiscated, interned, and encouraged to die out--all in humane Christian manner, of course.

Qrswave, again u need to get real and honest: yes, absolutely we killed, slaughtered, exterminated, and totally annihilated the "Indians" thus taking their land by conquest--such is human nature and history. Thus their former ("Indian") land became ours--exactly like all lands ever became for the conquerors. Qrswave, u need to get real. We only sympathize with "Palestinians" for our own interests and purposes; u're childish if u think otherwise. Again, get real.

The point of course, if u remember, regarding removal of Bush II, is in general the traditional "states rights" as of the American Confederates of Civil War era leading to independence and self-government. Arabs and Muslims belong in Arab and Muslim lands, not here in USA, except as guests at exclusive behest of the native people, we white Christians.

CONCLUSION: I think this above exposition is eminently reasonable and actually quite simple for understanding; what's ur real problem? If u think we white Christians owe u anything, u must think u have "cards u're not showing." Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

Most of the land of Israel was purchased from abstentee landlords. The land also was mostly abandoned swampland until settlors moved there. And let's get real. Palestinians had their own gangs and killed massive numbers of settlors. The foundation of the main part of Israel is legitimate by any standard, and the foundation of the West Bank, while I do not see it as legitimate, is still more legitimate than the foundation of America. The West Bank was taken after a war of self defense with Arab nations. (Six Day War) They conquered the land, and should have returned it after it was taken, but didn't. In contrast, Americans conquered Native American land in wars wholly of conquest. (btw, Andrew Jackson spearheaded many of these wars - he is not a hero of a man)

I want to also add another difference. No white person lived in America, prior to the conquest over Native Americans. In contrast, Jews were living in Israel since the beginning of recorded history.

It is wrong and completely inaccurate to compare the foundation of Israel with that of America.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Thus "Miss R" confirms and corroborates my point: Jews are liars by habit, conviction, and religion: extermination is only justice for them. Yes, "Miss R" is indubitably insane; so what? So what will u do now, qrswave, continue to humor the scummy Jew-liar who laughs in ur face, as u are so frustrated? U never learn, do u, qrswave?--u cannot reason w. Jew as they inhabit a different SUBJECTIVISTIC reality--get real. At some pt. u gotta face reality--and this same reality is what verifies my above-given arguments: USA belongs to white Christians and only us--get real. As soon then as u accept such plain reality, the sooner we can cooperate in dealing with the Jews and their gentile accomplices. Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

One more thing.

The Revolutionary War may not have been won by Americans had it not been for some key Jews who were Patriots to the cause. I linked to some of those Jews.

The concept that this is a "White Christian land" is nonsensical to the core, given the fact that this very nation was founded with Jews.

You also didn't even define what sort of Christianity you consider genuine. I mean, I know it's the type that espouses hate, that much is clear...but beyond that...saying "White Christian land" does deal with the problem of defining what "white" is and defining what "Christian" is. Then again, you really don't care about Christianity. You only care about hate. That is your religion - HATE.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Miss r, the fact that Jews have been in the middle east since time immemorial makes their turning on their arab neighbors even worse than it would have been had they never known them.

Why? Why stab your neighbors in the back? Why insist on an all Jewish state by force?

-------------

Thor, thanks for conceding that you are a murderous trespassor and an ingrate as well. Your people LEFT their homeland to come here and murder the natives of this land, and you admit that you would do it again.

Then you write what you want at my blog, capitalizing on my daily efforts on behalf of ALL honest Americans, and have the nerve to tell me that when the war is won I must go back "home" or live as a second class citizen.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Yes Christianity is hatred of Jew--antisemitism--Jews, Talmudic followers of Pharisees who murdered Christ as commemorated in Talmud. And to hate the Jew monster is eminently reasonable, natural, human, and just. Note hatred is emotion, and emotion carries the human btwn thought and reason which thought-reason require effort and will-power. Even most intense hatred and emotion is (often) perfectly rational. U're insane joke, "Miss R"--u Jews are the disease God inflicts upon human gentiles who've become too successful and numerous. But then in the Spenglerian cycle of things, Jews get too numerous too, eh? Ur Jew days are numbered. Finally, note I write for our public out there in cyber-land who are most often impressed with truth and logic, not Jew lies. Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Erosoplier said...

mighty thor is just like the zionist - by whatever means he wants to remove the people he doesn't like from the land he's claimed as his own.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Um...no...Thor is NOT like a Zionist. Zionists don't believe in the anniliation of Muslims.

And again, QRS, mischaracterization. Israel is NOT an all Jewish state - Arab Israelis live there in peace.

We are in agreement that Israelis should not be in the West Bank, but in the main part of Israel, Arab Israelis live alongside Jewish Israelis. They were NOT kicked out, and they have full citizenship rights.

Finally, QRS, I am surprised you finally realize what Thor stands for. I knew the whole time. It's not like he is honest now, and was dishonest before...he has been quite forthright in his hatred and desire for ethnic cleansing.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Qrswave Suffers Shattering Moment Of Truth
(Mighty Thor, 21 Apr 06)

Awwwww gee qrswave, golly, but the truth does hurt sometimes, doesn't it?--how old are u, anyway? And note I didn't say we were "murderers" which is a loaded term, so u're fibbing a little bit, eh? Besides, what is war, but legalized murder?

"Nerve," u say?--look who's talking, denying obvious truth USA belongs to white Christians and no one else. Qrswave, u've absorbed too much subjectivisticalism fm associating w. Jews (and stupid gentiles), evidently. The truth is the truth, and if u're honest blogger, u'll appreciate such truth so honestly exposited for u. Hey, ask the Mexicans here--they're happy as "second-class" citizens. Don't take it all so hard. Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous V. said...

You are not so mighty Thor. Behind your pseudo-power pseudonym you are really just a boring asshole.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

brilliant strategy, thor. Continue to divide so we can remain conquered.

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Not at all qrswave; this is our white Christian land, the USA, and only ours, period--this is the truth which u must acknowledge before any progress can possibly be made. A little proper "division" isn't always so bad. Any alliance (or marriage) built upon lies is doomed--note u're only doing what Jews need u to do, being so presumptuous. We owe u nothing, and we owe Jews nothing. If u say we owe anyone, u know what Jews will say (which they say anyway).

And note again, as I've emphasized, my strategy detailed above is really, again, just de-activation of Jew-oligarchal Mammon empire based on states' rights, independence and self-government. After u've had good night's sleep, I'm sure, u'll realize how absurd u are to pretend Arabs or Muslims could possibly be proper citizens of USA. U gotta get real. The point is to destroy the Jew-oppressor; then all are benefitted immeasurably; look at the good side of my strategy.

Regarding "V," above, well if u're so "bored," then why did u bother to write and post anything, moron? Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Friday, April 21, 2006, Blogger Erosoplier said...

miss r said "Um...no...Thor is NOT like a Zionist. Zionists don't believe in the anniliation of Muslims."

What do you think of Jews who are against Zionism (eg jewsagainstzionism.com) miss r?

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

People are free to believe what they want. I don't see how it matters if a Jew happens to be pro-Zionist or anti-Zionist. The philsophy has relevance or it doesn't.

Zionism is NOT racism. Racism implies a belief that another race/ethnicity/religion is inferior. Unmighty Thor is a racist.

In contrast, zionism is the belief that Jews should have a homeland in Israel. Some extremists believe that this homeland involves kicking Palestinians out. I do not. But the core belief of zionism - that a homeland should be in Israel - is inherently NOT RACIST.

It is laughable and highly offensive that somehow zionism should be conflated with Unmighty Thor's dickless hatred.

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Zionist do not just want a Jewish homeland. They want a majority Jewish homeland - by any means necessary. And they want it to include land that's not theirs.

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

Mischaracterization of zionism.

Some extremists believe any means necessary should be used. However, the sort of zionism I ascribe to is quite different.

The proof is in the pudding. The main part of Israel includes Arab Israelis who have full citizenship rights.

Not all zionists believe that the West Bank should be controlled by Israel. However, as I stated multiple times, I do not think it wise to hand all of the West Bank over to the Palestinians without some sort of assurance that there will be peace. That is impossible at the moment, given Hamas does not recognize Israel's base right to exist.

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

"However, the sort of zionism I ascribe to is quite different."

You, Miss R, do not live in Israel, nor do you dictate Israeli policy.

To paraphrase the words of Rumsfeld...

Palestinians do not get to deal with Israel as it should be, or as you wish it would be, but must deal with it as it is - a state whose actions are dictated by belligerent and oppressive occupiers.

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger Erosoplier said...

miss R said "the core belief of zionism - that a homeland should be in Israel - is inherently NOT RACIST."

Racism aside, is the core belief of zionism even legitimately Jewish? Is "Zionist idealogy...totally contrary to traditional Jewish law and beliefs and the teachings of the Holy Torah" or not? "The Talmud explains That we have been foresworn, by three strong oaths, not to ascend to the Holy Land as a group using force, not to rebel against the governments of countries in which we live, and not by our sins, to prolong the coming of moshiach; as is written in Tractate Kesubos 111a." (quotes from jewsagainstzionism)

If we don't nuke ourselves into oblivion, we should have quite a bit of time up our sleeves to find a definitive answer to this question.

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Biggest, Most Successful and Most Dangerous Spin of All

Alan Hart, 17 April, 2006

By author and former ITN and Panorama reporter Alan Hart who, with his latest book, ZIONISM: THE REAL ENEMY OF THE JEWS, is engaged in what he calls a “titanic struggle” to tell the whole and unexpurgated truth about how the Palestine problem became the cancer at the heart of international affairs, and who must do what and why if this cancer is to be cured before it consumes us all.

-----

[..]

For anti-spin doctors of all faiths and none, Problem Number One (I’ll be addressing three problems in this posting) is that most Gentiles and, it seems, many Jews, either have no idea or a wrong idea about what Zionism actually is. The wrong idea exists because of Zionism’s breathtaking success in convincing pretty much all of the Judeo-Christian world that Judaism, the religion of Jews, and Zionism are somehow one and the same thing. And it’s because of this success that Zionist spin doctors, feeding off the obscenity of the Nazi holocaust (a Gentile not a Moslem crime), are able to play their blackmail card – the false and malicious charge of anti-Semitism – to silence critics of Israel right or wrong and suppress debate.

The truth, which Zionism does not want the world to know, is in two related parts. The first is that Zionism and Judaism are not one and the same thing. The second is that knowledge of the difference between Judaism and Zionism is the key to understanding why it is perfectly possible to be passionately anti-Zionist without being in any way, shape or form anti-Semitic.

[..]

For the sake of informed and honest debate it should be said that Zionism has no roots in Palestine. Zionism’s roots are in Eastern Europe, in what for a thousand years was the Russian empire of the Tsars. And Zionism’s actual birthplace, the venue in 1897 for its first dishonest mission statement, was a gambling casino (how appropriate) in Switzerland.



Judaism does, of course, have its roots in Palestine. But let’s pause for a moment to take account of what the rabbis who speak for those described as “true” and sometimes “ultra” Orthodox religious Jews say about this on the basis of what is set down in Judaism’s holy book, the Torah, and a vast code of Oral Teaching handed down through the generations… Yes, these rabbis say, God did promise Abraham land, but under certain conditions. These conditions were basically that the Hebrews had to maintain the highest moral, ethical and religious standards, which included treating those already on the land promised with justice and equality. And it was because the Hebrews did not do so that God punished them with exile.



Although most Jews today appear to be unaware of it, the fact is that the return of Jews to the land of biblical Israel by the efforts of man was PROSCRIBED by Judaism. Because the exile was decreed by Almighty God as a punishment, the return had to await the coming of the Messiah. Return by the efforts of men would constitute “a rebellion against the wishes of the Almighty.” [1]



In other words, and as “true” and/or “ultra” Orthodox religious Jews put it: “The Jewish religion absolutely forbids Zionism both on grounds of religious belief and grounds of Jewish religious values of humanitarianism.” [1]



In other words, and again as “true” and/or “ultra” Orthodox religious Jews put it: “Judaism and Zionism are total opposites, incompatible and diametrically opposed.” [1]

[..]

http://www.spinwatch.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=478

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I actually do know of some Orthodox Jews who proclaim Israel illegitimate for some of the reasons cited.

In fact, David Ben Gurion was an avowed atheist, so obviously Zionism is not necessarily tied to Judaism. I also consider myself an atheist. That said, the bible does speak to Jews having a homeland in Israel. The Talmud is not the bible.

I do not claim that Jews deserve a homeland in Israel for religious reasons, as I do not believe in the bible. They deserve a homeland there for very pratical and secular reasons. Firstly, Jews were living in Israel, continuosly, since recorded history. Secondly, the main part of Israel was NOT taken by Palestinians by force. Settlors lawfully purchased the land (which was mostly swampland at the time) from absentee landlords, and that which was not lawfully purchased was flat out abandoned in 1948. (And it was not abandoned because evil Jews chased Palestinians off - in fact there was an armed struggle between Palestinians and Jews, which Palestinians started - this is documented.) Thirdly, despite that, Arab Israelis remained in Israel, where they have a higher standard of living than they could hope for anywhere in the Arab world. They account for 15-20% of the population of the main part of Israel. Fourthly, the West Bank was taken in a self defensive war against Arab nations. Should it have been kept? No, I do not believe so. But taking land in a self defensive action is hardly the height of evil-ness.

Finally, re: QRS. The situation is far more complicated. When Palestinians suicide bomb (AND YES THEY BOMB, IT IS NOT ISRAELIS PRETENDING), and refuse to recognize the State of Israel, it becomes hard to give the land back to the Palestinians. It makes no sense to engage in "land for peace" if there can be no assured PEACE. Also, Israel and the world has given MASSIVE amounts of aid to the Palestinian Authority, which was then wiled away and kept in Swiss bank accounts by Yassir Arafat. The plight of the Palestinians, their poverty, has at least as much to do with Arafat as it does with anyone else.

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger Erosoplier said...

miss R wrote: "In fact, David Ben Gurion was an avowed atheist, so obviously Zionism is not necessarily tied to Judaism. I also consider myself an atheist. That said, the bible does speak to Jews having a homeland in Israel. The Talmud is not the bible."

So you, a non-Jew, beleive that the Zionists, who are not necessarily Jewish, have a right to have a homeland of Israel because the Jews have always lived in that area, and the bible speaks to Jews having a homeland in Israel - even though the Jewish bible and tradition explicitly prohibits the creation of a Jewish homeland by the worldly action of Jews. I get it now.

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion. I consider myself ethnically Jewish, even though I do not actually believe in the religion. In the same vein, David Ben Gurion considered himself a Jew, even though he did not believe in the bible. This is how it is possible for the State of Israel to be a secular state. (it is NOT a religious state)

I believe Jews deserve a homeland, just as French people deserve a homeland, just as Chinese people deserve a homeland. (etc) Jews (as an ethnicity) have been living in Israel since recorded history. It is patently absurd to say they do not have a claim to the land based on THAT ALONE. It is actually offensive that I or ANYONE should have to defend such an obvious right.

The Jewish bible does NOT explicitly prohibit the creation of a Jewish homeland. The Talmud does have the quotation you cited, but the Jewish bible (five books of Moses - the Talmud is NOT the bible), in fact lists Israel as the promised land.

I do not cite bibical authority for Jews being in Israel, but it is there nonetheless.

Finally, I am Jewish. I am a Jewish atheist. If you want to be technical, my ancestors hailed from Russia, Poland, and Lithuania. However, I feel little to no tie to "the homeland" - nations that necessitated my maternal grandparents to move (Pogroms), and which was complicit in the Holocaust that my paternal grandmother was in. I have many friends who are exactly what I am - Jewish atheists. They consider themselves BOTH Jewish and atheists. This only proves that Judaism is a culture (and what I would consider an ethnicity) and a religion.

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Judaism: Most Sublime Psychopathology
(Mighty Thor, 22 Apr 06)

Judaism is a disease, disease of foremost SUBJECTIVISM which afflicts a gentile population which has matured in the success of its ancestors, the present population now sated in HUBRIS, hence "Decline of the West" (Oswald Spengler). Judaism and its psychopathology is thus cyclic in effect and perfectly biologic for fundamental function.

The particular hubris of the West is surely the neo-Pelagianism (founded in "good-evil" fallacy-delusion) of Immanuel Kant, German Transcendental Idealism, and English Utilitarianism.

Judaism is then, for Jews themselves, most sublime war-mentality-hystericism by which original Jews propounded a God which lusted obsessively after these "chosen people" whom now this God pursues as the male pursues the female, Jews thus symbolized in characteristic collectivist manner. Ck the Old Testament "Song Of Songs," also Books of Hosea and Ezekiel.

Judaic subjectivism morphs and mutates expediently into secular forms, especially persecution complex, by which Jews persuade themselves they're hated unjustifiably, hence persecuted, and envied by gentiles. Thus Judaic psychotics persuade themselves they're also "atheists" if they want to be.

For as Jews are subjectivists they are supremely capable and adept at so persuading themselves to believe any lie, any absurdity. Such lies only require intensity of treatment and repetition--which then is why they so dominate the mass "Jews-media."

Note then Judaic subjectivism has a distinct purpose: it provides foundation then for fraud, then especially the most sublime specific fraud, that of fractional-reserve money and banking, which Jew, Bernard Lazare, assures us in his work, "Antisemitism," Jews have dominated since 14th century.

Thus Judaism shouldn't be mystified or romanticized but rather studied most scientifically: it's a disease of culture, mentality, and sociology, a psychopathology by which Jews are persuaded reality is whatever they want it to be (SUBJECTIVISM). This psychopathology works especially well, historically, when there are enough hubristic gentiles who now find it "moral" to tolerate these most sublime liars, murderers, criminals, conspirators, and psychotics, Jews.

As success of Judaism is cyclic we see in history Judaism wanes after, in its "success," it destroys the host it parasitizes. And we see Jews are universally hated, having been banished fm practically every nation on earth.

Thus Judaism was dealt a nearly death-blow by the Roman emperor and saint, Constantine the Great, and now we see the West in consequent success and prosperity suffered hubris, pretended to a "mighty-white" type of "tolerance" and allowed back the Jew to infiltrate and re-afflict the culture, Jews bribing their way by means of their "banking" abilities, the gentiles too busy fighting with one another to consider the horrific mistake they were making, the curse they were leaving upon their descendents.

Thus we see the Jews' practical place in history and culture, their effect biologic as they "cull the herd" of over-populated gentiles grown too hubristic and complacent from the preceding thriving of their culture built upon the success of more virile ancestors.

As the proverbial "worm turns" with the on-going and ever-greater "success" of the Jews, as presently, they become too prominent to be overlooked, and the natural, consequent, and inevitable antisemitism grows among the surviving gentiles.

Such then is the cyclic progress in history, and sociology regarding Jews. Thus topmost Jew masterminds will periodically begin to betray and sacrifice some of the lower-level Jews in order to pretend Jews are so "persecuted"--even within the minds of the remaining lower-level Jews, these Jews ever-willing to fight for their masters.

Presently it's difficult to see how the Jews can too much continue to succeed any further much more than they already have, the surviving gentiles evermore sickening of these insane murderers and totally obsessed frauds. But the topmost masterminds among Jews seem to remain confident as they consider there are still so many lower-level Jews to make use of to cover for the escape and migration of the masterminds to new refuges.

CONCLUSION: Such then are most scientific, general, sociologic-psychologic, and historical observations regarding Jews, Jews again, best understood as God's affliction and punishment upon a gentile population grown so hubristic upon the success and good fortune of their ancestors, as presently the white volk of USA and West. Jews actually and simply fulfill a strictly biologic function, the disease-of-opportunity feeding off the gentile population's hubris, "culling" the excess of the gentile "herd." Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Saturday, April 22, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

*ignores Unmighty Thor and goes on to add a caveat to what I stated earlier*

I have a problem with how Israel is run, in that I do think the leaders of the Orthodox Jewish religion have way too much of a sway.

The original idea for Israel was for a secular state for both religious and non-religious Jews to live together.

Obviously not all of the original land in Israel was swampland, and obviously there were Palestinians run off the land. I do not condone such behavior. There has also been discrimination against Arab Israelis in the government and private sector, just as African Americans in America experienced (and experience) discrimination. I do not condone that, either. All of this exists alongside constant aggression against Israel by Hamas/al aqsa as well as other Arab nations. It is not the clear cut case of "Israel bad," because Israel often acted out of a justified fear of attack.

I want to add that there are some Jews within Israel that identify more with Arab Israelis than with other Jews - namely, the Sephardic Jews, who grew up in the Middle East and have Middle Eastern ancestry. Some of these people actually grew up speaking Arabic, not Hebrew, before moving to Israel.

The situation is complex and multi-faceted.

One of the kindest and most intelligent person I have ever met is an Arab Israeli, who considers himself Palestinian. I conversed with him for many hours when I studied Arabic a few years ago. (I had to drop that due to scheduling concerns)

My ideal Israel would be one in which Jews, Muslims, Christians, and Druze live together in equal harmony. This does not exist at the moment, but it is the ideal upon which the State of Israel was founded, and which I support.

I do not support a religious state anywhere in the world, including Israel, however, I believe that Jews as an ethnicity have a right to their own nation, just as the French, Germans, Italians, etc have their own nation.

I see nothing wrong with that. I see no way in which my view is racist.

 
At Sunday, April 23, 2006, Blogger Erosoplier said...

miss R said "My ideal Israel would be one in which Jews, Muslims, Christians, and Druze live together in equal harmony. This does not exist at the moment, but it is the ideal upon which the State of Israel was founded, and which I support."

You contradict yourself - one minute you say "[t]he original idea for Israel was for a secular state for both religious and non-religious Jews," and the next you describe a garden variety pluralistic affair. The former would have to be called "Israel," the latter could concievably be named "Palestine."


From Neturei Karta International:

ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!

The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.

Some religious Jews, confused by Zionist propaganda quote Biblical verses that state that G-d gave the children of Israel the Holy Land. They overlook, unfortunately, those verses which say that He took it away due to our sins. They further ignore those prophecies which explicitly describe the last exile's conclusion as a Divine, not a human process.

The Creator has commanded every Jew to follow the ways of peace and to be loyal to the country where he lives.

Torah true Jewry waits patiently for the Messianic redemption. They have nothing to do with any kind of pseudo "Jewish State" and its aggressions against other peoples. They have a deep sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians who have suffered the most from Zionism's false teachings and barbaric actions. The Zionist state is not a Jewish state. The Zionists alone are the only ones responsible for their actions. Authentic Jewry has and will continue to oppose the very existence of this blasphemous state.

May all mankind witness the true redemption.

 
At Sunday, April 23, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Torah law is in fact conflicted as to whether Jews deserve their own state.

And I do not care as I do not believe in hocus pocus and do not base my support of Israel on the bible.

I believe in a state where the majority of the residents are Jews, and the traditions of the society reflect Jewish traditions, however, where minorities are treated with respect. THAT is what I believe in. I believe in a state where Jews can exist without fear. Every other major religion has such a state. It is only a reflection of prejudice to say Jews do not deserve this.

I realize it is difficult for you to conceive of Zionism - ie, a belief of a Jewish state in Israel, can be something that is NOT racism, but guess what? It isn't racism.

In contrast to what I believe, and in contrast to the founding principles of Israel (which reflect those beliefs), most of the Arab world has theocratic states where their citizens have little to no rights.

But c'est la vie, huh?

 
At Sunday, April 23, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I want to add that supporting a regime like Iran's (as opposed to saying Iran shouldn't be bombed) is itself a form of anti-Jewish sentiment and homophobia.

(I am not saying you support Iran, but I think this blog loses sight of the brutality of Iran)

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2003/March/Jews/index.html

 
At Sunday, April 23, 2006, Blogger Erosoplier said...

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I've bought the whole "Hitler wasn't just a madman he was a patsy for the banker-elites / The Zionists have spun the capital H Holocaust beyond all proportion / The banker-elites and oil men commissioned 9/11 and the media has been complicit it creating the phoney War on Terror since" routine.

I'm afraid that at this point in time I SUPPORT IRAN, coz I figure that once (if) we wrest power from the hands of the lunatics who are currently orchestrating world events, we can win the likes of Iran over with some authentic old fashioned peace-seeking "liberal-democratic" behaviour.

 
At Sunday, April 23, 2006, Blogger Citisucks said...

Going back to vper's comment, I think one of the problems is that there aren't enough bikes or people walking, etc in many areas of the country. As gas prices sky rocket, we will see more and more people using these forms of transportation and cars will be forced to adjust.

 
At Sunday, April 23, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Eros,

Okay, just as long as you have revealed yourself to be a hateful person, that's fine. I love it when I get people who pretend to be peaceful to admit they are haters underneath it all.

Citisucks,

I agree with you. This is why I take the subway/walk almost everywhere.

 
At Sunday, April 23, 2006, Blogger Citisucks said...

That is good that you take the subway/walk almost everywhere.

I would also add progressives don't have to been pacifists. Those who make nonviolent revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable. Not that I am advocating for violence, but this is why we often see things come down to violence.

 
At Sunday, April 23, 2006, Blogger Erosoplier said...

then the focus shifts to personal attacks and away from the arguments...

 
At Wednesday, June 11, 2008, Blogger big danno said...

I wish everyone would get pissed off.Let your Congressman and state leaders have it and let them know if we don't start drilling our own oil, you'll vote them out! The Repubilcans try to get more drilling and the Demacrates keep stopping them. This is a national problem and the BS has to stop NOW! If we would just come out and say that we were going to start drilling off the coasts and Alaska, it would drop the price of gas by a third. OPEC would produce more oil to keep us from drilling our own and the speculators would quit buying futures at the risk of lossing their shorts (Money)!! I've emailed every major politician in my state and they don't like it when I tell them will vote them out! It doesn't take hardly any time and it lets them know were getting FED UP!

 
At Sunday, July 27, 2008, Blogger Art Jones said...

Express your politics in dollars. Reduce our oil consumption by 10%. We reduced prices in July, 2008, by this action. Push the price down further. Every gallon we stop buying speaks louder than a letter to congress. leave to congress or act now.

 
At Sunday, November 16, 2008, Blogger Mark said...

Crude oil is down more than 50% from its high of $147 a barrel… But oil-gas station prices are not down by 50%? Moreover, there were no corresponding increases or decreases in supply-demand in 2007-2008! Peak oil has been predicted for 150 years. It has never happened, and it will stay this way. It is market manipulation or it is simply an irrational speculative mania.

The greedy oil price hikers, believers, analysts and cheerleaders were led by top ten global oil companies who continue to loot consumers, fuel inflation and the recessionary credit crunch. This is nothing less than ENRON-like collusion on a global scale.

Read how, for example, power cuts make ENRON http://FixyaExperts.wordpress.com and http://FixyaExperts.blogspot.com

 
At Friday, September 10, 2010, Blogger Carmina said...

most big international companies are doing what ecologists call green-washing, they pretend to be environmentally friendly with some "policies and actions" they take to look as they are concerned about environment, but they are not. That is why Sildenafil Citrate once said, don't see what is on paper, but what their actions

 
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