< HOME  Tuesday, March 14, 2006

Bob McIlvaine: US gov behind 9/11

Father of 9/11 victim Bobby McIlvain talks to Jon Gold of 911blogger.com about the 9/11 commission and how he has come to the conclusion that the US government orchestrated 9/11.


At Tuesday, March 14, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

He looks like such a kind, honest man. It's so infuriating to know that his life was shattered for the insane greed of a handful of people.

God how I pray that the truth comes out while the families of the victims are still alive.

At Tuesday, March 14, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

This is what a controlled demolition actually looks and sounds like:




Compare to the so-called proof of the 9/11 "controlled explosions."

Now lets look at our 9/11 "conspiracy proof" videos....



Oh wait, we cant hear anything in most of those wtc videos. What a surprise. Never fear, you can get good close up audio and video from a documentary called "9 11" - the story of one fire department who responded to the scene and experienced the situation first hand.


The more I read and see, the less convinced I am that this was a controlled demolition. Initially I thought it remotely plausible. I now think it minutely plausible.

Questions that need to be answered by those who claim it was a controlled demolition:

- When would explosives have been placed?
- How many devices would be required to destroy these structures?
- How large would the devices be?
- How were they placed without witnesses? (NOTE: buildings were open 24/7)
- How were they concealed (to avoid discovery before the attack)?
- How were they detonated and how were those detonations timed?
- Provide a loudness estimate in decibel of each explosion, then of each series, and explain why this would or would not be heard by bystanders.
- Explain in detail how a controlled collapse can be executed top down, provide at least two working models.

At Tuesday, March 14, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

That said - of course the man seems to be a kind man whose life was shattered.

This does not mean that it was in fact a structured plan of the US/Israel that shattered his life.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

you know, vper, I can't understand why some people dismiss the theory that something other than a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon.

I find it incredible that, based on the evidence, anyone would think that one did.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


You want to see...what exactly?

911myths.com addresses this latest point quiet well.


Oh right, this is "inaccurate."

What about this? Well over 100 witnesses recount seeing a plane flying into the Pentagon.


Another article debunking the myth that a 757 didn't fly into the Pentagon.


Then again, there is no convincing you, even with the best Noam Chomsky-designed site in the world. Your mind is made up. Just don't pretend to actually look at evidence or ask others to look at evidence when making up their minds, if you won't extend the same courtesy.

C'est la vie.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

So the fuck what???

The government made political hay out of 9/11. This proves zippo!!!

I am sorry, but the evidence being presented showing demolitions simply do not hold up against the evidence. And in what way is the 911myths.com site so terrible?

And since when do victims' families believe the government is behind 9/11?? A couple do. We are supposed to take those couple to mean the vast majority?

Unlike everyone else on this board, I work in Lower Manhattan. My family lives in a building overlooking the hole in the ground. I have quizzed my family and coworkers (including the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, where I interned one summer) about every aspect of 9/11. I met the very guy who designed the Silverstein contract, which states Silverstein has to pay $120 million even if there is no WTC.

I went in with an open mind. I wanted to know everything they had to say. I have gotten a huge cumulative load of information from firefighters, policemen (yes, I asked random cops and firefighters about 9/11), people on the street, and the government. All fo rmy own edification. None of it points to these claims.

Please point to one aspect of the websites I linked to which is inaccurate.

If none of those sites satisfy you, what about this one, which includes an analysis by a professor of fire science.


Because of some complaints that I only link to articles, I even copied and pasted the text for you all, which I am about 100% positive you will not read and/or dismiss.


The collapse of both World Trade Center towers--and the smaller WTC 7 a few hours later--initially surprised even some experts. But subsequent studies have shown that the WTC's structural integrity was destroyed by intense fire as well as the severe damage inflicted by the planes. That explanation hasn't swayed conspiracy theorists, who contend that all three buildings were wired with explosives in advance and razed in a series of controlled demolitions.

Widespread Damage
CLAIM: The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center's 110-story North Tower; the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors of the 110-story South Tower. The impact and ensuing fires disrupted elevator service in both buildings. Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. "There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below," claims a posting on the San Diego Independent Media Center Web site (sandiego.indymedia.org). "It is OBVIOUS and irrefutable that OTHER EXPLOSIVES (... such as concussion bombs) HAD ALREADY BEEN DETONATED in the lower levels of tower one at the same time as the plane crash."

FACT: Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.

The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower's core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel--and fiery destruction throughout the building. "It's very hard to document where the fuel went," says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, "but if it's atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it'll go off."

Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that "some elevators slammed right down" to the ground floor. "The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died," says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary "9/11," by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.

"Melted" Steel
CLAIM: "We have been lied to," announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. "The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel." The posting is entitled "Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC."

FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength--and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."

Puffs Of Dust
CLAIM: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: "The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions." Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying "there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse." The article continues, "Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures."

FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.

Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air--along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse--was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."

Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. "I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building," he tells PM. "I only said that that's what it looked like."

Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. "I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line." But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: "The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement." Romero responds: "Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years."

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

And for the record, I said a while back that if there was a controlled demolition, it could have been for safety reasons. I did not say it was for safety reasons.

I now do not believe there was a controlled demolition. I once thought it possible, but looking at all the evidence has convinced me there was no controlled demolition.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Oh, for the record, the Popular Mechanics Magazine has much for where the above came from.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I started reading your article denying PM, and then I started laughing, because it spoke of drone aircrafts flying.

Um...tell that to the family members who lost their loved ones in the flights that crashed.

It then spoke of the breach of Norad procedure and said such a breach of procedure was impossible to be sheer negligence. Um, no.

The bottom line is that Katrina proves everything.

If instead of the levee bursting due to a hurricane, it was a bomb that burst the levees, the reaction from the Bush administration would have been the same.

If the incompetence seems to extensive to be real, that is because the incompetence of the Bush administration is so extensive, it has never been seen before.

I am not praising Bush. If anything, I think he is too incompetent to plan 9/11!!

I am sorry, but criminal negligence and incompetence does not mean actual planning of 9/11.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

And for the record, the BYU professor who wrote that is not a structural engineer.

I am not, either. But that is why I rely on facts said and written by ACTUAL structural engineers.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Okay, I had typos that made the post make no sense, so I had to delete and start over.


Please explain the scores of dead victims. The phone records. Please explain this.

You actually believe a drone flew into the WTC/Pentagon?

Operation Northwoods explains nothing. It does not explain the scores of dead victims and phone records, testimony of air traffic controllers, and 911 phone records. Just because a drone aircraft operation was thought about as an idea decades ago does not mean it was implemented.

There is some evidence that points to explosions of the Towers, but even that is well refuted by facts. (which I have linked to) However, a belief that drone planes flew into the Towers? WHOA.

That has about as much credibility as stating the Holocaust didn't exist.

I am sorry, but for you to actually think there were DRONE AIRCRAFTS, given the massive evidence to the contrary...

There is only one explanation for this. You hate America so much you are blinded by your hate and you cannot think rationally.

Btw, this bias really helps you in your "cause" to spread the "truth." *said sarcastically*

I wonder if you live in America. If you do...why? Why do any of you live in America if you hate it so intensely? Why not move to Iran, a nation y'all applaud? What is your reason for living in a nation you despise with every core of your essence?

I am not saying everyone who dissents or disagrees should move. But I read comments on this board saying America is evil at the FOUNDATION! How the very idea of America is evil. Assuming this notion is shared by others who frequent this site and live in America...why are you living here? I really do not get it.

And for clarification, I am not requesting you leave America. Rather, I am asking why you do not leave on your own. Why do you want to live in a nation you hate?

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

HAHA, you're welcome.

And Judy Wood was wrong.

She stated there was no fire in the lower floors. In fact, the elevator shaft burst into fire, and the core of the building itself was on fire. This is well documented. The entire elevator shaft was on fire, and she did not account for this.

Nice try with the attempt at science, though.

At Wednesday, March 15, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Popular Mechanics article was designed to discredit the 9/11 Truth Movement. All its claims are nothing but red herrings and strawmen. A sham.

There were a few small fires in WTC 2, according to a battalion chief. Nothing major.

The reason structural engineers fall for the government's version of events is caused by their unwillingless to look at the evidence that NIST does not provide. According to NIST, their report "does not actually include the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached"

According to Dr Jones' paper, most of the evidence for controlled demolitions comes after collapse initiation.

Also, for their computer simulations, NIST says: To the extent that the simulations deviated from the photographic evidence or eyewitness reports [e.g., complete collapse occurred], the investigators adjusted the input

And now NIST refuses to show their computer simulations to leading structural and fire engineers who call for them. From Jones' paper: An article in the journal New Civil Engineering (NCE) has come to my attention at the end of the draft-process which lends support to concerns about the NIST analysis of the WTC collapses. It states: World Trade Center disaster investigators [at NIST] are refusing to show computer visualizations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned

So, they change the input so the buildings would collapse, and now they won't share their simulations with leading engineers. I wonder why?


At Thursday, March 16, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

miss r said: I wonder if you live in America. If you do...why? Why do any of you live in America if you hate it so intensely? Why not move to Iran, a nation y'all applaud? What is your reason for living in a nation you despise with every core of your essence?

I am not saying everyone who dissents or disagrees should move. But I read comments on this board saying America is evil at the FOUNDATION! How the very idea of America is evil. Assuming this notion is shared by others who frequent this site and live in America...why are you living here? I really do not get it.

And for clarification, I am not requesting you leave America."

Actually, your comments in general, and this one in particular make it CRYSTAL CLEAR what you mean. You do not seek the truth, but indeed aim to subvert it and drive away those who dare to question it.

But, we're not going away miss r. Like it or lump it, honest Americans are here to stay.

The helpless and the hopeless in America who always knew that the "American Dream" was a marketing scam designed to dupe the masses into complacency have just been joined by the disillusioned and rightfully indignant.

We don't know what the truth is, But, we know what it IS NOT.

WE DEMAND to know THE TRUTH and we will not stop until we get it - your pompous, childlike tirades notwithstanding.


All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. --Schopenhauer

At Thursday, March 16, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've investigated on my own and come to conclusion that there is definitely something fishy about the official version. Just too many coincidences and too darn convenient. Unfortunately, because the only people that know what happened on 911 are the ones that orchestrated it, there is no way to tell which one of these theories is correct.

One of the things that always surprised me is how people are so easily duped. Have they really been able to do such reprogramming of people that wasn't even possible in communism (and I come from a communist country where there was a lot of programming)?

A question that should be asked is not how did 911 happen (as I said it's almost impossible), but why? The answer to this question is easily deductable by looking back at events that happened after 911.

Another thing: In war the soldiers are expandable and forced to follow orders, while the generals are the ones giving the orders. There are only a handful of generals. The rest of us are soldiers. All clear?

At Friday, July 10, 2009, Blogger Unknown said...

Yeah, like the Al Qaeda.

At Monday, January 16, 2012, Blogger NYguy said...

The video was 2006. Whatever happened to the book Bobby talked about? Did it ever get published?
911 will always be a mystery. You just can't explain away the powder dust and free fall collapse with office fire.

At Sunday, August 12, 2012, Blogger Rick said...

The largest "elevator modernization" and asbestos removal projects in history were underway in the months up until 9/11, by Ace Elevator Inc and other contractors. Workers were in the elavator shafts, and above ceiling panels by night - plenty of time and opportunity to plant explosives covertly. The workers must be found and interviewed.


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