< HOME  Thursday, March 09, 2006

Samson: the ultimate suicide bomber

There is a lot of worry popping up in the media just now - "Can Israel Survive?" Don't worry about it. It relates to something that Palestinians, the Arabs, and perhaps most Americans don't realize - the Jews are never going quietly again. Never. And if the world doesn't come to understand that, then millions of Arabs are going to die. It's as simple as that. - Joe McCain*
The double standard of the "international community" re Iran's "supposed" nuclear armaments program rings a tad more shrill every day. As signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and additional protocols Iran has every right to carry out uranium enrichment for purposes other than weaponization.

Which is why the US has since 2004 favored "Iran's exit from NPT … and its allies are following up. It will give them the pretense to report Iran to the UN Security Council," Pirouz Mojtahedzadeh told PIN in an interview. "The United States has been seeking to tell the world that Iran is producing atomic weapons. In the meantime, this country has failed to offer any evidence."

But even if it were true that Iran is seeking nuclear arms (something which has not been proven) in a region where Israel (a non-signatory of the NPT along with Pakistan and India) has a reported 400 warheads and the admitted capability to intercept the Shihab-3 rocket, the basis for any Iranian "nuclear missile," one would think the balance of terror alone would be deterrent enough.

Unless there is some other reason. According to Efraim Inbar of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, the nature of the threat lies in his claim that "The Islamic Republic of Iran is the greatest and most urgent threat to the new regional order in the Middle East and to American hegemony in world affairs."

The part about American hegemony we've heard countless times before. It is merely there to appease those who subscribe to American Imperial designs. The more interesting phrase in the last sentence is "the new regional order in the Middle East."

The New Regional Order
There was a time when the United States was the unquestioned military superpower in the Middle East and drew obedient if grudging respect from all sides. No more. Now Israel is the region's superpower, and where it once looked to the United States not just for diplomatic support but also for military rescue, now Israel can thumb its nose at Washington and go its own way.David Wood
As you may have noted the only voices that seem to increase in volume and vindictiveness towards Iran and in support of opening a new war front in the Middle East is Israel and its supporters'. Why would that be? Could it have anything to do with this "new regional order"? To answer that we have to take a closer look at the taboo that is the Israeli nuclear and biological weapons programs and strategic posture. This will also answer the question, "What is Joe McCain talking about?"

According to John Steinbach, in 2002 Israel had "supplanted Britain as the World's 5th Largest nuclear power, and may currently rival France and China in the size and sophistication of its nuclear arsenal." Israeli nuclear weapons research was spearheaded in the late 1940's by Ernest David Bergman. It was France "which provided the bulk of early nuclear assistance to Israel culminating in construction of Dimona," which went online in 1964. With all that in place one problem remained. How was Israel to get its hands on the necessary uranium: "yellowcake"?

Steinbach writes: "The short term answer was to mount commando raids in France and Britain to successfully hijack uranium shipments and, in 1968, to collaborate with West Germany in diverting 200 tons of yellowcake (uranium oxide). These clandestine acquisitions of uranium for Dimona were subsequently covered up by the various countries involved. There was also an allegation that a U.S. corporation called Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation (NUMEC) diverted hundreds of pounds of enriched uranium to Israel from the mid-50s to the mid-60s.

"Despite an FBI and CIA investigation, and Congressional hearings, no one was ever prosecuted, although most other investigators believed the diversion had occurred. In the late 1960s, Israel solved the uranium problem by developing close ties with South Africa in a quid pro quo arrangement whereby Israel supplied the technology and expertise for the "Apartheid Bomb," while South Africa provided the uranium."

Something else the Israeli and former Apartheid regime co-authored in happy genocidal unison was the so-called "ethno-bullet." In 1997, US Defense Secretary William Cohen "revealed that he had received reports of countries working to create 'certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic-specific.' A senior western intelligence source confirmed last week that Israel was one of the countries Cohen had in mind."

"In developing their "ethno-bomb", Israeli scientists are trying to exploit medical advances by identifying distinctive genes carried by some Arabs, then create a genetically modified bacterium or virus. The intention is to use the ability of viruses and certain bacteria to alter the DNA inside their host's living cells. The scientists are trying to engineer deadly micro-organisms that attack only those bearing the distinctive genes. The programme is based at the biological institute in Nes Tziyona, the main research facility for Israel's clandestine arsenal of chemical and biological weapons."

On November 15, 1998, The Sunday Times published a report stating that "Israel is working on a genetically-targeted biological weapon. The article cites Israeli military officials and western intelligence officials as sources for the report. The biological weapon is to be used to kill Arabs (mostly Iraqis) based on their genetic make-up. An unidentified scientist working on the project is quoted as saying that Israeli scientists have 'succeeded in pinpointing a particular characteristic in the genetic profile of certain Arab communities, particularly the Iraqi people.' The program is allegedly being worked on at the Israel Institute for Biological Research (IIBR)."

Getting back to Israel's nuclear weapons we have to ask, of what type are they? According to Steinbach "there is little doubt that Israeli nukes are among the world's most sophisticated, largely designed for 'war fighting' in the Middle East. A staple of the Israeli nuclear arsenal are 'neutron bombs,' miniaturized thermonuclear bombs designed to maximize deadly gamma radiation while minimizing blast effects and long term radiation - in essence designed to kill people while leaving property intact."

Other types include: ballistic and cruise missiles capable of ranges up to 950 miles, nuclear landmines, artillery shells with ranges up to 45 miles, cruise bearing submarines, and "the bombs themselves [which] range in size from 'city busters' larger than the Hiroshima Bomb to tactical mini nukes."

He concludes that "The Israeli arsenal of weapons of mass destruction clearly dwarfs the actual or potential arsenals of all other Middle Eastern states combined, and is vastly greater than any conceivable need for 'deterrence.'" Thereby establishing that the gravest threat to Israel from Iran is not the threat of attack, as Efriam Inbar would have it, but the threat to its "regional hegemony:" the loss of atomic leverage.

Samson's Endlösung
Masada was not an example to follow - it hurt the Romans not a whit, but Samson in Gaza? With an H-bomb? What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens?" - David Perlmutter in Los Angeles Times
As for Israel's strategic posture re nuclear weapons, the main doctrine has been that Israeli WMD's are a deterrence against conventional and unconventional attacks. Failing that the next strategic choice would be the "Samson Option," i.e. "an all-out attack against an adversary should defenses fail and population centers be threatened." According to Seymour Hersh the title stems from "Israel's notion that once they have the Bomb, they are in a position to bring it all down on everyone if ever they feel cornered." Much like the biblical Samson who "commits suicide by pushing down the temple pillars, in order to kill as many of the Philistine leaders as he can."

It has been this threat of a nuclear bullet to the world's temple that Israel has used and uses today to form a great deal of Middle East policy. The Israeli nuclear doctrine is broader and includes a pre-emptive option. In an address to the Department of War Studies, King's College, London, on October 16, 1996, Louis Rene Beres opined that "Deterrence and preemption strategies could fail, even though they had been supported by nuclear weapons, and Israel's continued survival might then require the weapons and tactics needed for nuclear warfighting."

On May 15, 2001, Beres spoke of "The credibility of Israel's still deliberately ambiguous nuclear deterrent … could create erroneous calaculations by prospective attackers, a situation that could plausibly undermine Israel's nuclear deterrent … Perceptions are all-important in matters of Israeli nuclear deterrence. By keeping all elements of its nuclear doctrine secret, Israel could contribute to an impression among its regional enemies that Israeli nuclear weapons are unusable. "

Therefore, he says, "To prevent nuclear war, Israel needs an appropriate nuclear deterrent. But it cannot rely entirely upon this one base of national security any more than it can rely only upon conventional deterrence. Rather, it must now rely upon complementary nuclear and conventional forces, and upon the continuing and associated availability of certain preemption options." Which I take to mean Israel's willingness to strike first with nuclear weapons lest the "enemy" should get ideas must be made as plain as day (no pun intended).

A great part of the strategy depends on the "enemy's" knowledge of it. This is achieved in part through the dissemination of overt and covert "crazier than thou" threats such as the one by Perlmutter quoted above.

Threat of the Third Temple Bullet

Bere's plans are of course only a prelude to the "Samson Option." Not only that, the "Samson Option" has a broader scope. It is used to blackmail. According to Steinbach "As early as 1956 Francis Perrin, head of the French A-bomb project wrote 'We thought the Israeli Bomb was aimed at the Americans, not to launch it at the Americans, but to say, "If you don't want to help us in a critical situation we will require you to help us; otherwise we will use our nuclear bombs."'"

"During the 1973 war, Israel used nuclear blackmail to force Kissinger and Nixon to airlift massive amounts of military hardware to Israel. The Israeli Ambassador, Simha Dinitz, is quoted as saying, at the time, 'If a massive airlift to Israel does not start immediately, then I will know that the U.S. is reneging on its promises and...we will have to draw very serious conclusions...'"

"Just one example of this strategy was spelled out in 1987 by Amos Rubin, economic adviser to Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who said 'If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid.' Since then Israel's nuclear arsenal has expanded exponentially, both quantitatively and qualitatively, while the U.S. money spigots remain wide open."

Along these same lines Tom Ambrose ended his 2003 article "Big, Bad Israel" with these words: "If the day should ever arrive that Israel is destroyed by its enemies, the U.S. will surely and shortly thereafter meet its own demise."

I'll end this post with an extended quote from an article by David Hirsh published in the Observer on Sunday September 21, 2003:

The threatening of wild, irrational violence, in response to political pressure, has been an Israeli impulse from the very earliest days. It was first authoritatively documented, in the 1950s, by Moshe Sharett, the dovish Prime Minister, who wrote of his Defence Minister, Pinhas Lavon, that he 'constantly preached for acts of madness' or 'going crazy' if ever Israel were crossed. Without a 'just, comprehensive and lasting' peace which only America can bring to pass, Israel will remain at least as likely a candidate as Iran, and a far more enduring one, for the role of 'nuclear-crazy' state.

Iran can never be threatened in its very existence. Israel can. Indeed, such a threat could even grow out of the current intifada. That, at least, is the pessimistic opinion of Martin van Creveld, professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. 'If it went on much longer,' he said, 'the Israeli government [would] lose control of the people. In campaigns like this, the anti-terror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing. I regard a total Israeli defeat as unavoidable. That will mean the collapse of the Israeli state and society. We'll destroy ourselves.'

In this situation, he went on, more and more Israelis were coming to regard the 'transfer' of the Palestinians as the only salvation; resort to it was growing 'more probable' with each passing day. Sharon 'wants to escalate the conflict and knows that nothing else will succeed'.

But would the world permit such ethnic cleansing? 'That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.'

Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother. This is why all nations fall in line?


* Brother of Senator John McCain, 11 April 2002.


At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger tomtom said...

An interesting post jc. One thing I missed though is one other aspect of the "blackmail" is Europe's feeling of guilt over the holocaust. Israel plays that card pretty well.

Basically it is like a clasical stand-off. And in stand-off's there are a couple of options. 1. both opponents die (very unlikely) 2. one opponent dies, cause he is the faster shooter (very likely). And 3. A third party pops up and shoots one of the opponents or both of them (Bush?????).

Personally I do not believe that Israelis are willing to play the last card, the ultimate suicide. Reason not to believe that is the strong survival mentality of the Israelis. And they are masters in the political blackmail. As you explained they tell Bush, "If you do not destroy Iran's nukes (and Pakistan's for that mater too) we will".

Before Samson could destroy the temple of the Filistinians, Delila cut his hair and he lost all his power. This part of the analogy has yet to come.
The solution is the destruction of Israel's nuclear capability one way or another to solve the problem (cutting Samsons hair) and keep it that way.

Anyway the old military adagium is attack is the best defence. Iran is the one that could do that is what the Israeli's tell the Americans to believe. I am willing to think so an this makes the blackmail very scarry. It is the old maffia trick, rob the shop and later offer the shopkeeper protection.
So what should the shopkeeper do? Kill the blackmailer?

Maybe Thor is right after all.

The resaon not te get to excited about this hypotetis
is the fairytale content, to much Holywood, to much fear generating. But still interesting to think about.

TomTom, Fearless Navigator

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...


thx. interesting points. like you i can't say yes or no to the scenario's likelihood.

then again "acting" like a mad dog seems to have paid off. whether they really are mad, who knows? the fact that thier act gets them what they want is probably enoguh for them right?

and you have to factor in masada. "we will kill ourselves before they kill us."

add that to Samson and you got some powerfull hoodoo.


At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...


one more thing. they might be bluffing, grant you that.

but who's gonna call the bluff?

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


Of course there is a double standard.

Israel is a friend and Iran is not.

It's pretty obvious. I touched upon this earlier.

Has Israel ever used a nuke? Helllz no!!! They can actually be trusted to keep their technology from terrorists seeking to destroy America. Iran cannot.

It's really that simple. Feel free to dispute that, I really do not care.

I also do not see why it's "political blackmail" for Israel to say "If you do not bomb Iran's weapons sites, we will." Um, that does not force America to bomb anything. America could easily say "Fine, take care of it yourself, then!"

Blackmail is "If you don't bomb Iran, we will bomb you." That is not what Israel is saying. Let's use correct terminology here!

-So sayeth the "Sayan"

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

As far as nuclear technology secrets passed to Israel, I can say that Jonathan Pollard was jailed for treason. So there has been some action taken - as a point of fact.

As far as having the bomb - it's pretty obvious that Israel has it for the same reasons other nations have it. The idea is the threat of a bomb is what allows peace to happen. That is pretty well known/obvious.

And as far as how many bombs Israel has - I do not know. I don't know how many bombs many nations have. America itself has never revealed how much it has in its nuclear arsenal - and yet America is the only nation in the world to have used nukes in combat. I would say America is more of a threat than your rabid-dog focus on Israel, especially with Bush at the helm.

And all that said - despite the hypocrisy - the fact remains that America has not used nukes since 1945, and obviously has no intention of passing nuke secrets to non-state actors. In contrast, a suicide bombing seminar occurred in Iran, a nation whose publicly stated it wants to destroy Israel.

So...yeah...there is a difference. And it should be reflected in the policy. To pretend Iran=Israel=America is just foolhardy.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

funny that you mention the suicide bomber seminar in Iran that I posted about a couple of weeks ago.

My initial response to that report, was: this is a sham. But, I posted it anyway figuring it was going to get a lot of coverage by the mainstream media. For one reason or another, I never heard about it again. Not a word. Very odd.

jc, this is a very interesting post. Great presentation of the information and comprehensive citing. great work.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


I heard about the seminar in the so-called mainstream media. In fact, I have links about it. So much for that theory of your's.

Link 1: ABC news - rather "mainstrea"

Link 2 - Washington Post

Link 3 - Boston Globe

You get the point. I could go on for pages about the places where the seminar was mentioned. You are, as a point of fact, wrong that the "MSM" did not break this story.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

One more thing, TomTom.

Europe should feel damned guilty over the Holocaust.

They allowed it to happen - and even encouraged it. They should feel guilty as hell. France, Austria, the pope in Italy, the USSR, Poland...they all were accomplices in the Holocaust and allowed it to happen.

The funny bit of irony is that it was Denmark, the country in which had the Danish cartoons, which is the one nation that Hitler conquered that stood up for the Jews. As a point of fact, the King of Denmark wore a Jewish star on his arm in solidarity with the Jews, and they proceeded to smuggle all Jews out of Denmark by ship to Sweden.

The Scandanavian countries simply rock.

Anyway, just thought it was worth it to inform you about something you might not have known.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

sure, they "broke it." My point is that talk show hosts didn't have a hey day as I imagined they would. Why?

You would think that something like that would be pretty good evidence of extremism and perfect for those who are bent on condemning Iran. So, why are they all so quiet?

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

gee with the word 'jew" at the heading of the topic I would have thought Thor would have replied with his vast interlect on this particular subject, after all isn't our in house jew expert?

Non the less it looks like someone is going to attack, its just who has the balls to drop the first bomb.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger John Shklov said...

Well documented and well written post. I rather like your Samson reference, the biblical always sonehow brings forward a subtle sense of authority and credibility.

On the other hand, Since many years ago and a high ranking Israeli (before their bombs were public knowledge) told me "The Arabs know we have the bomb and we will take the world with us if we have to!" His point at the time was that it would stop an Arab Invasion of Israel. I always think of Israel like having a mad dog on a very short leash for the world.

When a mad dog goes off anyone, including his handler can be severely mauled.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


I have no idea why the media did not focus on this one story above all others. But it was WAS featured, and it was also featured on 24 hour news channels.

Furthermore, your logic makes no sense. If it was heavily featured in the 24 hour news channels, you would say it is propoganda for a war. If it is NOT featured, you say the seminar is a lie. So according to you - you're damned if you do and damned if you don't!

To sum up your logic: Anything you disagree with is either a lie and/or conspiracy theory.

Palestinian suicide bombers? No, they do not exist - it's an Israeli conspiracy theory!

Islamic fundamentalism? It's the result of the west and a conspiracy theory?

9/11 - Planned by the U.S./Israel - conspiracy theory!

Iranian suicide bombing seminar - Lie/conspiracy theory!

Danish cartoons - Conspiracy theory to inflame Muslim anger!

Moussaoui - Made insane by the US - conspiracy theory!

Now, I am even seeing support for the resident hater/adorable little urchin, Thor/Appy. Predictable and funny.

Wow, I really wonder how you sleep at night if you think America and Israel are that evil.

Meanwhile, I see post after post after post focusing on conspiracy theories, and increasingly less posts focusing on proven facts that in and of themselves are damaging enough to prove a hell of a lot. Not only do you accomplish exactly zippo by hemming and hawing about conspiracy theories, you are counterproductive, as it makes it seem those who oppose Bush's policies (and also the on occasion legitimately bad policies of Israel) are conspiracy theorists who blindly hate America and Israel.

What I ask all of you is how much any of you are doing to actually CHANGE the situation in the world? Y'all think it's so evil? Then go and do something about it instead of complaining. You are accomplishing literally zippo.

QRS, If you really are so against the interest system in America, then come with me when I volunteer at the county court, counseling debtors who face judgments against them. Or do something else! Plan something! Do something! I read ONE POST so far that actually involved DOING SOMETHING about the situation. (the one on the seminar in Chicago)

THAT is what is effective. All this bluster is, if anything, counterproductive.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

Iran's Deadly EMP Weapon Latest Neo-Con War Fraud

From the same snake oil salesmen that brought you 45 minute attack claims, dodgy dossiers and weapons bunkers that were bakeries, comes the shocking new threat that could knock America back into the stone age, Iran's deadly EMP weapons.

[mike rivero's comment:] "And, and, and, ... a Death Star. Iran has a DEATH STAR!! Oooooh, scary, scary Iran. Can we bomb them now?" -- Official White Horse Souse

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

martin van crevald:

Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother." I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.

if this isn't a threat, what is?

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

According to Seymour Hersh, "the size and sophistication of Israel's nuclear arsenal allows men such as Ariel Sharon to dream of redrawing the map of the Middle East aided by the implicit threat of nuclear force." .... Ze'ev Shiff, an Israeli military expert writing in Haaretz said, "Whoever believes that Israel will ever sign the UN Convention prohibiting the proliferation of nuclear weapons... is day dreaming," and Munya Mardoch, Director of the Israeli Institute for the Development of Weaponry, said in 1994, "The moral and political meaning of nuclear weapons is that states which renounce their use are acquiescing to the status of Vassal states. All those states which feel satisfied with possessing conventional weapons alone are fated to become vassal states."

Iran does not seem to be interested in being a vassal state. So israel decides it must be taught a lesson.

this is what is going on.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

-Douglas Adams

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


Yes, Israel does have nuclear capabilities, an incredible intelligence network, and a top notch military. Do I dispute this? Hellllz no!!!

At the same time, Israel, contrary to the fun little lies you pass as fact, has restrained from using its weapons unless attacked, and mostly has the top notch army as a deterrent against attack.

The fact remains that Israel has no plans to "drive Iran into the sea" or destroy Iran. They are only concerned about the nuclear weapon potential that can destroy THEM! This is a well founded fear, as far as I can see.

Israel has nukes, and yet has not nuked the Palestinians, despite constant suicide bombing attacks. They in fact have never used their nukes ONCE, and have no intention of passing on nuke information to dangerous non-state actors/terrorists. Iran has a completely different agenda.

I know I am talking to a wall here, and you will come back and say "Israel is evil, Sayan!!!" I realize this, and so I am typing my posts, sort of laughing.

Of course you ignored everything I wrote about actually DOING SOMETHING about the world you hate. See, you would rather talk all sorts of conspiracy theory bluster that accomplishes nothing, rather than taking action to change the world. The latter would actually entail effort. It's easier to simmer in hatred and engage in name calling.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self.

-Aldous Huxley

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

"We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under."

Sounds like a threat to me. Can they, or would they do it? Who knows.

Yes, I agree, jc. Israelis want everyone else in the world to fall in line with their program. Those who will not are marginalized, punished and/or destroyed.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Oh, and vper1, I think I love you. :-p

Douglas Adams rocks, and that quote rocks. That may be my new signature. My own thoughts on the world are: LOOK TO CHERNOBYL! It is a flowering paradise in the wake of its nuclear explosion. This proves humanity is a worse blight on the earth's ecosystem than nuclear waste! So if the earth is bombed to oblivion, at least cool new flora and fauna will exist.

To quote George Carlin: The earth is not in trouble. It's human beings that are endangered species.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


That last quote also rocks! You are just a regular source for wonderful quotes! My crush in you has grown quite strong. :-)

QRS and JC,

You make no sense. Are you saying that every other nuclear power is any different? DUH, THIS IS WHY THEY HAVE NUKES! IT IS RATHER OBVIOUS!

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...


At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


This is the first indication you have shown that you actually have a sense of humor. I applaud you!

And you just admit that Israel has nukes for the same reason every other nation has nukes. Thank you for finally stating the obvious.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

i have quoted israeli official discussing israeli military doctrine in very clear terms.

i have quoted people like mccain and perelman who support these doctrines and they've made themselves very clear.

if you had read the post and checked the sources i might concede that it is worthwhile talking to you. it seems you have not, since the only thing you seem capable of is accusing me of promoting conspiracies and lies.

which lies? the lies of begin, inbar, mccain perelman, hersh et al.?

the israelis and others i quote in my piece have made it very clear why they have nuclear weapons.

is your dispute with them? no, it's with me for presenting them.

the fact is these people i quote determine policies and actions. not you. they have the finger on the bomb trigger. not you. they have threatened the world. not you.

what is it about these facts that you would have silenced?

why do you not address them?

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

also, the "samson option" is israeli neclear doctrine/ i did not make the plans and i did not come up with the terms and analogies. israelis did in order to explain the doctrine.

again, why would you have these facts suppressed?

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

in other words, what is your motive?

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger tomtom said...

miss R, I do understand your worries about Israel and how we think about it. But zionist have choosen the damned place according to their fairytale book. After WWII many jewish people sought a save haven in Israel. Not the best place to be, surrounded by Arabs. They had nowhere else to go.

I do not deny Israel the right to defend itself, but using a nuke as the ultimate weapon is beyond what I can comprehend. There are other solutions posible and Israel inspite of their power should stop behaving as a spoiled child. ( you know those jewish mothers)

I am aware of other powers inside Israel that do not agree with their government and this group is getting larger and louder.

I also know that Israel used to be ( mark my frasing) very good military. But I also know they are masters in psychological warfare, masters in bluffing.

Regarding the guilt of Europeans and I happent to be a citizen of a country that was occupied by the Nazis. if you have been occupied by an allien force that uses exreme brutal force you would understand why this has happened. I do not believe you can inherit guilt, so the new European generations have nothing to do with that, but they know the stories and they see what Israel is doing today to the Palestinians.

Now you in the US you could almost regard yourself as being taken hostage by a bunch of lunatics, almost like being occupied, the lunatics also played their cards well. As soon as the totalitarians system is established in the US you should see how much apathy there is, and already today there is.

The resistance movements in Europe during WWII came into effect almost right after the occupation started.

I would like to see what resistance movement there is in the US today to stop the luny bunch. Virtualy non at all but apathy. Yes you do write blogs as individulas but anybody already organised. This is how Hitler started in Europe 70,80 years ago. You know what happened then.

Do somtehing you said, well? You can only fight terorrism with terorism and that is what a resistance group is doing. They like to call them insurgents. Iraqis know, Palestinians know, most Europeans know, all colonised people in te world know. I think you dont know.

But keep up the good work finding all the right information and distribute that via blogs it is a beginning. Ignorance is people's the worst enemy.

Anything that happens, happens
Anything that, in happening causes somthing else to happen, causes something else to happen
Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again. happens again
It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though.

Douglas Adams

I think I will travel to the restaurant at the end of the universe and watch the whole show when it all ends.

TomTom, Fearless Navigator

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


My point is that your quote sonly reveal an honesty about the Israeli nuclear weapons program.

The truth is that everynation has nukes both as a deterrant ("don't attack me - I HAVE NUKES!") and as an insurance policy. ("If you attack me with nukes, I have nukes to attack back!)

Your quotes simply reveal brutal honesty about why Israel has a nuke program.

Thankfully, until now, the deterrant effect of a world of nations with nukes have kept the world ironically safe.

In contrast to the stated reasons Israel (and the rest of the world) have for their nuclear program, Iran has expressed a desire to drive Israel into the sea. They also have shown a willingness to sponsor terrorism on their soil. This is different than every other nation with nukes.

It is pretty obvious and I have no idea why you refuse to see it. C'est la vie.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


Firstly, I want to say that the new generation of Europeans should not have guilt over what they did not do, BUT, they should be aware of what was done. In their name. And for the record, Vichy France handed over the names of Jews to the Nazis. As did the pope, as did all the other nations I mentioned. They cooperated with the Nazis and helped them.

Re: Israel.

You are simply mischaracterizing what Israel is doing.

Israelis want peace, but in order to have peace, they need an effective peace partner. They did not have it in the corrupt/horrible Arafat. And they cannot negotiate with Abbas, who has no power. In order for peace, there first has to be a recognition of Israel's right to exist. Secondly, there has to be a pledge to end terror in exchange for Palestinian statehood. Given Hamas has stated they do not believe Israel has any right to exist - not in Haifa, Tel Aviv, or West Jerusalem, there is no negotiating, and handing over land to thugs only gives them a launching pad with which to enact terror upon Israel.

THAT is the bottom line. Period. In the meantime, good Palestinians clearly suffer most of all, as they were slaughtered by the Jordanian king in 1970 ("black September") - about 3,000-4,000 slaughtered by an Arab king, and are living in poverty now. Their leaders have taken them hostage, and basically decided rhetoric is better than delivering them an actual state. It is sad, sad, sad.

Meanwhile, kids are being used as suicide bombers. Meanwhile, militants will hide amongst women and children, and then the blame is placed on Israel when the IDF inadvertantly kills women and children. (rather than on the militant/monster)

Terrorism is not the answer to statehood. It is crippling the Palestinian people. It has necessitated a wall which obviously is harmful to the good Palestinians who mean no harm. The solution is simple. Negotiation, honesty, and tolerance is the solution.

THEN, Palestinians will have what they deserve - their own state in the West Bank.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

israelis have sponsered terrorism time and again. even your supreme court has admitted to this.

remember deir yassin, sabra and shatila and the never convicted terrorists begin, sharon, et al?

what is it about their crimes that are different?

why is it that israeli atrocities are not atricities?

israeli murders are not murders?

israeli occupation and theft is not occupation and theft?

an israeli psychopat is not a psychopath?

why is that? because he/she is israeli?

because israelis are inherently superior?

sometime you say no. at other times you say yes.

why is that?

and if, as you say, it is fine for israel to threaten the world with its nuclear arsenal, because, as you say, everyone does this. then they have a deterrent.

all experts including the cia, nsa and others readiliy admit that iran is ten to twelve years from a bomb, if they seek the bomb.

but they need energy, hence nuclear power. they have signed the npt and agree to inspections. something israel will its own words never will do.

why should i implicitly trust israel? i have no reason to. i find their "brutal honesty" as you call it (threatening the world with weapons they do not admit having) brutally disturbing.

iran like iraq has no WMD. i wish they had, so that yet more people would not have to die too appease israeli paranoia. because it seems that the only deterrent capable of stopping these US/israeli crimes against humanity is in fact nuclear weapons.

nor do i see why, exactly, the people of the middle east should be subservient to israel.

you apparently think they should. why is that?

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger yusuf chun said...

the palestinians will have "what they deserve"? they will have what is their right. not what israel thinks "they deserve."

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


The Palestinians have a right to their own state when they decide to recognize Israel and pledge to end terror. Otherwise, a Palestinian state = a launch pad for terror.

You focus on Israel as a "big bad," and yet you fail to recognize that Jordan killed more Palestinians in 1970 than Israel did - ever!

Moreover, as I have well documented, so-called Israeli "atrocities" are basically the IDF responding to a situation in which Palestinian militants/monsters train CHILDREN to suicide bomb, and/or hide amongst women and children, resulting in civilian deaths when Israel attacks. Why is there NO CALL TO END THAT?

You are frankly mistaken about your characterization about Israeli terror. When people like Baruch Goldstein kill Palestinians as he did, the world, including Israel, condemned him. I condemned him. I condemn any Israel sponsored terror which consists of purposely aiming for civilians. So does the Israeli Supreme Court. So does the Israeli government.

IN CONTRAST! The Palestinians celebrate (and give money to) the families of suicide bombers, who aim for maximum civilian death.

I have no idea how you see what the Palestinians are doing as inherently better.

Israeli occupation of the West Bank is something the nation has TRIED to end - most recently in 2001 with the Barak plan. Yet Arafat refused the plan and failed to come up with any alternative plan. If you think the plan was so bad, then please provide me with an itemized list of what was lacking in the plan. (And do not say "right of return," because we all know that a "right of return" would essentially end Israel)

What are Palestinians? How many existed prior to 1948. Very few. As a point of fact, the UN decided to define a Palestinian national as someone who lived in the area for two years prior to the formation of Israel. This is something it never did in the history of the UN, before or since.

As a point of fact, the settlers of Israel (prior to formation) purchased their land lawfully from absentee landlords.

This is getting us nowhere. Keep on applying your double standards, where Palestinian terrorism is fine, and Israel is the "big bad evil." Really helps your case. *laughs*

For the final record, the "people of the Middle East" have again and again stated their goal is to elliminate Israel off the face of the earth. Israel has correspondingly done no such thing. "The people of the Middle East" have killed more Palestinians than Israel has. "The people of the Middle East" do not give a crap about the Palestinians, except as a tool to prop up corrupt dictatorships. Israel actually is concerned about the well being of Palestinians - having set up schools, universities, hospitals, and the like in the territories.

Palestinians in the TERRITORIES are better educated than most Muslims in the Middle East. They have better health care and longer life spans - DESPITE the so-called "big bad" Israel.

Keep on truckin' with your one-sided look at Israel. Realllly helpful! *laughs*

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

SIDE NOTE: What Israel did in Lebanon in 1982 is not excusable, as it was well documented in several sources that it was not necessary and in fact was borderline state sponsored terror. For the record, they nearly killed Arafat in 1982, but didn't because the U.S. basically told them to back down. This is one example of how Israel does not dictate American policy, but rather, it's the other way around.

I readily acknowledge that Lebanon was not a shining moment in Israeli history. Sure, Sharon is a war criminal. But then, so was Arafat! And at least Sharon, in contrast to Arafat, tried to broker peace at the end of his life, with the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. He was a man of war, but at the end of his life, he tried to broker peace. I have to respect him for that.

The bottom line is that I look at Israel clearly for what it is. You see Israel as evil NO MATTER WHAT IT DOES.

Why do you think Israelis are somehow inferior to the rest of the Middle Eastern nations? Why don't they deserve their own state?

Is it because they give too many rights to their citizens? Is it because it is a true democracy? Is it because it practices religious pluralism? Is it because it has freedom of the press and assembly? Is it because it has national healthcare? Is it because it has one of the most highly developed science programs in the world that produce some of the most important scientific findings in the world?

Are you resentful of the fact that Arab Israelis AND PALESTINIANS IN THE TERRITORIES have longer life spans than Muslims across the Middle East? I think you are.

Why the anti-Israel animus? I am truly curious.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

One more thing to JC.

Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and yet, because they have not threatened to use them, other than as a deterrant, there is no need to try to destroy Pakistani weapons capabilities.

Iran, ON THE OTHER HAND, has made it clear it intends to destroy Israel. I do not think America should go in and bomb nuke facilities. I never stated that. But this gives Israel a good reason to destroy Iranian nuke facilities. (via targeted bombings)

Furthermore, Iran has sponsored a suicide bombing training seminar on Iranian soil. This gives me reason to believe they would pass nuke secrets/technology to terrorists to use - possibly in the US. Frightening thought. IN CONTRAST, as stated earlier - Israel has no such intention of EVER using its nukes - unless absolutely forced to in a use-the-nukes-or-be-destroyed sort of scenario.

That said, the New York Times does have a good piece about why and how war could be avoided.


It gives good reasons why the Russian plan may be the best option.

Now, this article approaches this situation from a perspective that does not start out saying "Israel is evil." It uses logic to explain why the Russian deal is a good one. This goes back to my earlier point about how you accomplish zippo with your biased anti-Israel language, and only entrench my opinions (and for that matter, anyone who disagrees with you) further.

Using logic generally works.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger tomtom said...

Dear Miss R,
You are accusing JC and myself of one sided point of view. This is not true we are just reading (getting) information from all sides and when you have a clear mind things are very obvious. But as soon as Israel is mentioned you seem to jump. So even after all the information you get, which as `i could see is of a wide varaiety of sources you must be informed correctly, but one thing is not correct and that is your perception. If Is rael where the underdog but they arent. The Palestinians are. Basically they live like they were occupied, like we were in WWII. So if you know what it is not to live in freedom (and soon you will know too) that is to go where you want to go. You can take away peoples minds and speak unless you brainwash them. The west bank is basically a big concentration camp as is the Gaza strip. You should go there and then you should judge. I am not talking the political terrorist bands which you'll find on either side. The way Israel exist is a paranoia way, and they created the paranoia themselves. Maybe it is even in their genes.

I feel offended when you say that I should be aware of what was done. becauce I am very aware and many Europeans with me. Injustice and was not only exclusively done to the jewish population but to us as well.

I'll tell you a little story, it is about 29 people that where executed on 24 October 1944. They were just a random number of 29 people that were kept prisoner by the nazis. One early morning a Sicherheits Dienst officer was murdered by the resistance on a bridge near my house. The nazis rounded up all the neigbours and forced them to watch this execution which took place neaar the bridge

They also did that with a complete village on 2 October 1944 they took 661 men and boys and send them to Neuengamme (concentration camp in Germany) after the war only 49 returned. The reason for this revenge, the resistance ambushed a German army car the day before near the village and killed one offcer.

We do remember those events every year still.

I happen to live in a neighborhood where many jewish refugees from Germany found a safe place before the war but during the war many were deported. The resistance and civilians did maybe not enough but the nazis controlled the situation with brutal force. Besides they spread a lot of misinformation. Many neighbours went into hiding and survived. You should read Anne Frank again.

But I do not hate or despice Germans.

So don't sugestl that I am not aware. Most likely Europeans are more aware then Americans are, they have never been in a situation like this in ypour own country ( but wait, it will come to you sooner then you think). What happens, happens, maybe you understand why I quoted Douglas Adams.

Clear your mind from the wrong perception, maybe you have had some wrong informartions or have emotional ties, been on a Kibbuts maybe?

Love you still

TomTom. Fearless Navigator

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Jeff G said...

Hey Q,

Take a look at this Washington Post article regarding poll results on American's impressions of Islam. You might want to blog this. Its a little disheartening.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


The Palestinians are not in concentration camps. That is just...wow. Given my grandmother was actually in a concentration camp, I am well aware of what it means to be in a concentration camp.

As far as Europeans who helped Jews - many did. Most didn't. (save for Denmark)

I am done. You are so clearly biased, there is absolutely no arguing with you. Have a nice life ignoring facts!

Like the fact that Israel has tried again and again to get rid of the territories, and it's the Palestinians themselves who prevent it.

At Thursday, March 09, 2006, Blogger tomtom said...

problem with reading Miss R?

basically a concentration camp, is waht I said and there is nothing wrong with that conclusion when there is no freedom to move outside the area. I am not biased I listen to both sides and make my judgement as normal people should do. No preoccupation just being fair.

Again you are offending by saying I am ignoring facts, depends what facts are in cosideration. JC is basically right.

TomTom, Fearless Navigator

At Friday, March 10, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...


You are wrong. I know you will be very upset with me now...but I will have to give you some facts. I know facts burn the brain, but nonetheless, they are necessary. ;-)

Firstly, the Palestinians do have freedom of movement. Yes, they have checkpoints, so it takes them a while to get from place to place. But they are not forbidden from movement.


Let me inform you what a concentration camp is.

A concentration camp is a large detention center created for political opponents, enemy aliens, specific ethnic or religious groups, civilians of a critical war-zone, or other groups of people, often during a war. The term refers to situations where the internees are persons selected for their conformance to broad criteria without due process of law by a judiciary, rather than having been judged as individuals. Camps for prisoners of war are usually considered separately from this category, although informally, and in some other languages, they may also be called concentration camps. The word "concentration" indicates a regional concentration, or to collect the group desired, but it also implies the crowded, and often unhealthy, state of the facilities.

Israel is not responsible for the Palestinians being in that area. They are allowed freedom of movement within the territories. (with the checkpoint problem that is of their own making) Furthermore, they are free to go to any country in the world. I happen to know Palestinians here in the U.S. who moved from the territories. Finally, hospitals, schools, and infrastructure exists in the territories. Most of this is funded by Israel. And if the Palestinians have such a horrid situation, then why do they have higher life spans than the rest of the Middle East? (save the main part of Israel)

Israel is trying to make the best of the worst (horrible suicide bombers) situation. Period. The territories are not a concentration camp, and the use of the term "concentration camp" reflects a fundamental ignorance of the situation, and of the meaning of the term.


Facts about the West Bank - backing up what I have to say in general.


The following is a Palestinian source which backs up the facts I stated earlier about Palestinian health insurance.


The following Palestinian link backs up what I had to say about education:


The facts are in my favor. I am sorry, because I know that those that oppose Israel hate facts.

But the facts are the facts are the facts.

At Friday, March 10, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At Tuesday, March 06, 2007, Blogger Claymoremind said...

A thread that gets commented on over a year after it's posting is worth it's salt. The european threat is a straw dog because Rothschild's picture is still on the shekel. The central banker's central bankers have their headquarters and estates in Europe. Are they going to destroy their homes? No, that will be left to Putin, thus the missile defense in poland and czechia. The Samson option on europe's governments is bluff.

At Friday, March 09, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,
The following issue can destroy ISLAM or ISRAEL; study it thoroughly to see if there is any truth to it.
READ THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES FROM THE BIBLE AS IT HAS IMPLICATIONS ON THE WAR AGAINST TERROR/ISLAM and the claim of Israel that god gave them the land. If the child is an infant than the Judeo-Christian version becomes null and void and we are wasting our time and resources i.e. we could save trillions of dollars and create a more peaceful world rather than fighting against Islam the religion of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).
Please note this is not a competition between faiths but an attempt to decipher fact from fiction.
Genesis 21:14 Contemporary English version se below link
Early the next morning Abraham gave Hagar an animal skin full of water and some bread. Then he put the boy on her shoulder and sent them away.
And Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ish’mael. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ish’mael to Abram.
Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
At Genesis 22 Abraham had only 2 sons others came later. The Quran mentions that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed hence the reference in genesis 22:2 your only son can only mean someone has substituted Ishmael names for Isaac!!
NOT ROMAN NUMERALS (I, II, III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX,X) NB no concept of zero in roman numerals.
100 years old – 86 years old = 14 ADD 3 YEARS FOR ISSAC’S WEANING
Carefully read several times the above passage and then tell me the mental picture you get between the mother child interactions what is the age of the child. If the mental picture is that of a 17 year old child being carried on the shoulder of his mother, being physically placed in the bush, crying like a baby, mother having to give him water to drink, than the Islamic viewpoint is null and void. Why is there no verbal communications between mother and (17 YEAR OLD) child?
GENESIS: 21:14 - 21
So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the (17 YEAR OLD) child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-Sheba. When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the (17 YEAR OLD) child under one of the bushes. Then she went, and sat down over against him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, “Let me not look upon the death of the (17 YEAR OLD) child.” And as she sat over against him, the (17 YEAR OLD) child lifted up his voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the (17 YEAR OLD) lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the (17 YEAR OLD) lad where he is. Arise, lift up the (17 YEAR OLD) lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.” Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the (17 YEAR OLD) lad a drink. And God was with the (17 YEAR OLD) lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.
The age of Ishmael at this stage is crucial to the Abrahamic faiths. If he is 17 than the JUDEO/CHRISTIAN point of view about the Abrahamic covenant is correct. This has devastating theological consequences of unimaginable proportions.
This makes the conflict between Ishmael and Isaac and there descendants a work of fiction. I would strongly suggest it is clear cut case of racial discrimination and nothing to do with god almighty. The scribes have deliberately tried to make Isaac the only son and legitimate heir to the throne of Abraham??
Please can you rationally explain this anomaly?
I have asked many persons including my nephews and nieces - unbiased minds with no religious backgrounds but with reasonable command of the English language about this passage and they all agree that the child in the passage is an infant.
For background info on the future religion of mankind see the following websites:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=EvilGoblin George Galloway media appearances
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ ANTI-WAR
HOLY QURAN CHAPTER 37 verses 101 - 122
101. So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: “O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!” (The son) said: “O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!”
103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah., and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him “O Abraham!
105. “Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!” - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
106. For this was obviously a trial-
107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
109. “Peace and salutation to Abraham!”
110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.
114. Again (of old) We bestowed Our favour on Moses and Aaron,
115. And We delivered them and their people from (their) Great Calamity;
116. And We helped them, so they overcame (their troubles);
117. And We gave them the Book which helps to make things clear;
118. And We guided them to the Straight Way.
119. And We left (this blessing) for them among generations (to come) in later times:
120. “Peace and salutation to Moses and Aaron!”
121. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
122. For they were two of our believing Servants.
Therefore the claim that god gave the land to Israel is destroyed without the need of any WMD’s.
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka’ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael’s mother followed him saying, “O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?” She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her Then she asked him, “Has Allah ordered you to do so?” He said, “Yes.” She said, “Then He will not neglect us,” and returned while Abraham proceeded onwards, and on reaching the Thaniya where they could not see him, he faced the Ka’ba, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayers:
‘O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Your Sacred House (Kaba at Mecca) in order, O our Lord, that they may offer prayer perfectly. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allah) provide them with fruits, so that they may give thanks.’ (14.37) Ishmael’s mother went on suckling Ishmael and drinking from the water (she had).
When the water in the water-skin had all been used up, she became thirsty and her child also became thirsty. She started looking at him (i.e. Ishmael) tossing in agony; She left him, for she could not endure looking at him, and found that the mountain of Safa was the nearest mountain to her on that land. She stood on it and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. Then she descended from Safa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and trouble, till she crossed the valley and reached the Marwa mountain where she stood and started looking, expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She repeated that (running between Safa and Marwa) seven times.”
The Prophet said, “This is the source of the tradition of the walking of people between them (i.e. Safa and Marwa). When she reached the Marwa (for the last time) she heard a voice and she asked herself to be quiet and listened attentively. She heard the voice again and said, ‘O, (whoever you may be)! You have made me hear your voice; have you got something to help me?” And behold! She saw an angel at the place of Zam-zam, digging the earth with his heel (or his wing), till water flowed from that place. She started to make something like a basin around it, using her hand in this way, and started filling her water-skin with water with her hands, and the water was flowing out after she had scooped some of it.”
The Prophet added, “May Allah bestow Mercy on Ishmael’s mother! Had she let the Zam-zam (flow without trying to control it) (or had she not scooped from that water) (to fill her water-skin), Zam-zam would have been a stream flowing on the surface of the earth.” The Prophet further added, “Then she drank (water) and suckled her child. The angel said to her, ‘Don’t be afraid of being neglected, for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father, and Allah never neglects His people.’ The House (i.e. Kaba) at that time was on a high place resembling a hillock, and when torrents came, they flowed to its right and left. She lived in that way till some people from the tribe of Jurhum or a family from Jurhum passed by her and her child, as they (i.e. the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada’. They landed in the lower part of Mecca where they saw a bird that had the habit of flying around water and not leaving it. They said, ‘This bird must be flying around water, though we know that there is no water in this valley.’ They sent one or two messengers who discovered the source of water, and returned to inform them of the water. So, they all came (towards the water).” The Prophet added, “Ishmael’s mother was sitting near the water. They asked her, ‘Do you allow us to stay with you?” She replied, ‘Yes, but you will have no right to possess the water.’ They agreed to that.” The Prophet further said, “Ishmael’s mother was pleased with the whole situation as she used to love to enjoy the company of the people. So, they settled there, and later on they sent for their families who came and settled with them so that some families became permanent residents there. The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them.


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