< HOME  Sunday, March 05, 2006

Banned Fox News report on Israeli spy-ring and 9/11

Jack Abramoff… Let me tell you something. He's a guy, he's an orthodox Jew running what is a corrupt lobby, this in no way reinforces negative stereotypes that people may have had towards, let's say, Jews. –Jon Stewart on Larry King Live
I posted this earlier on my own site. And due to certain visitors to this site, one of whom accuses me of being "anti-" (you supply the necessary adjective) and who for reasons unknown wishes to remain part-time anonymous, and another who wishes to enlist me in a progrom against "undesirables" that ultimately will include myself, I had second thoughts about posting it here. But those reasons are personal.

The fact remains that these things occured. The four consecutive reports were filed by Carl Cameron. AIPAC did demand the reports be removed from their site and are now fighting to have it obliterated entirely from the net. So I decided you should at least be given the opportunity to view it on its own merits, while you still can.

Should it be suppressed? Have a look and tell me what you think.

Update:

Here's a link to an article at underground gateway on the Cameron reports, the media blackout and what this means.

Here is an article by Wendy Marwen of Marwen Media on same. She also has DVD copies of the report forsale at her website.

And this chilling 14 December 2001 report by Justin Raimondo, A McCAIN MOMENT:
This story is also a devastating blow to the War Party and its plans for an all-out attack on Iraq. To understand why, we have only to listen to Senator John McCain – the most belligerent and tireless of the warmongers – going up against a skeptical Chris Matthews, who wanted to know if the Senator thought we should conquer Iraq and set up a military occupation. McCain looked pained, and replied: "I don't pretend to prescribe the exact strategy." Scott McConnell captured this McCain Moment well in a column for Antiwar.com:

"Then he fell back to what he believed to be his Maginot Line, the argument that trumps all arguments. My nightmare – I have several nightmares about Saddam Hussein, but one of them is the that SCUD missile which he has. . . that's in the view of most, aimed at Israel. Aimed at Israel."

Well then, said Matthews, why doesn't Israel take them out?

McCain, stunned, hemmed and hawed for a moment, and finally said:

"Because I'm not sure we should ask the Israelis to do – to take care of a threat to the United States of America."

Matthews: "But you just said it was a threat to Israel."

McCain: "Well to world peace, I think."

Matthews: "No you said it was a threat to Israel. Why should the United States deal with a threat to Israel? Why don't we let Israel – we've been giving them $3 billion a year to defend themselves. Why don't we say, ‘Defend yourselves. You've got a clear fight. Go take Saddam out'?"

McCain: "Because I think it's our job. I think we're the world's leader and I. . ."

Matthews: "Our job is to defend Israel?"

Equating our "national interest" with the defense of Israel, McCain's answer was, essentially, yes. But no one said this was a mutual defense pact. Israel wants us to defend them: yet who, pray tell, will defend us from the Israelis?
Imagine that. Chris Matthews, like Carl Cameron, was once a reporter. He once actually had it in him to ask questions, and tough ones. Makes you wonder what happened, doesn't it?

In case you were wondering what gives me the right to speak my mind? I'm an American. I have every right to.

[Further articles by Raimondo]

65 Comments:

At Sunday, March 05, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Wow, that's amazing that you found this.

I heard about it a number of times, at the time it came out, but it was gone before I had a chance to see it.

Thanks!

 
At Sunday, March 05, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

Kucinich

 
At Sunday, March 05, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

wow, brilliant video, vper1! Thanks!

Kucinich is great; an honest man.

 
At Sunday, March 05, 2006, Blogger jc said...

vper1,

nice catch

 
At Sunday, March 05, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At Sunday, March 05, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I wrote a comment, and then realized it was not worth it.

This post merely proves my previous point.

That is all.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Left of Center said...

I had no idea an Isreali company did al the billing for so many US telecommunication companies. I gotta say that we allow that is every bit as rediculous as selling our under sea cables or port operation. Why should this story be suppressed,is Isreal to be held to a different standard than other nations?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Miss R, I'm not sure I understand your objection to this post.

This was a report on things that actually happened (no one denies them). Yet, the report was pulled from the network, never to be seen again. I think that alone is newsworthy.

And this is not focusing on Israel for the sake of focusing on Israel (I don't do that, btw, I mention Israel when it shows up in the news, which is often).

Anyway, 9/11 was an attack against Americans on American soil. This report relates to 9/11 and Israeli knowledge of it.

Are we supposed to ignore details about our own business because Israelis might be implicated and that makes people who like Israel uncomfortable? Come on! I don't even understand why you're uncomfortable.

For years the media has insisted that Mohammed Atta, a muslim and Egyptian national masterminded the attacks.

If they were to PROVE it today, I would be VERY satisfied because whoever is responsible for this heinous act, Muslim or not, must be held accountable.

I don't care that he calls himself Muslim because I know that a true believer would not do that. So, he's nothing but a fraud and a blot on the Muslim brotherhood.

Anyway, help me understand your perspective, because you have me totally confused.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

Here is my perspective.

If Israel had advance knowledge of 9/11, they are only in good company. So did the U.S. There was a report titled "Bin Laden to Attack U.S." for godsakes! So what possible information could this report have brought? None.

Meanwhile, this is post #1,234 that speaks to Israel's so-called involvement in 9/11.

*yawn*

I would like to see some posts speaking to the involvement of Islamic fundie groups. I have yet to see one (except the one I posted, of course).

Until I see one, this blog is biased and anti-Israel (and also anti-Jewish, because I see no other reason for the singular focus on ISRAEL as a source of evil, other than the fact that it is run by Jews).

Look at all facts, and then decide the truth of things. Period. This focus on Israel as a so-called evil nation, and somehow the dictator of American policy is tiresome.

It delegitimizes everything you are hoping to achieve.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I want to add that of course Mohammed Atta is not *actually* Muslim, but it does go to the heart of the problem with Islamic fundamentalism. (in that it is not Islam, it is demogoguery)

Islamic fundamentalism aka hate aka demogogery aka not Islam is a major problem in the world.

And I am not sure what can be done to stop it.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Anonymous Ruby said...

This is so disturbing. How much worse could it get? (Don't answer that.)

Kucinich is short and sweet (and his remarks were too!)

Ha ha. (Don't know where that came from!)

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Miss R said: "If Israel had advance knowledge of 9/11, they are only in good company. So did the U.S. There was a report titled "Bin Laden to Attack U.S." for godsakes! So what possible information could this report have brought? None."

What happened to accountability? Are you trying say that if Israelis had foreknowledge that they should not be held accountable because the US government had foreknowledge, too?

I don't get it. Am I missing something here? Please, explain.

IMHO, if someone had foreknowledge, no matter who they are, they must be held accountable.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

What I am saying is that I doubt that Israel had any knowledge the US didn't already have and chose to ignore.

The attack happened on US soil. It was a failure of US intelligence and US infrastructure that allowed 9/11 to happen. There is ample evidence that, had the US actually looked at the evidence they had, they could have stopped 9/11. 9/11 is the biggest amount of criminal negligence in the history of this nation.

Whether or not Israel had possible knowledge of 9/11 is irrelevant. The US had advance knowledge and ignored it. What exactly could have Israel done, even if they suppressed the intelligence they had? (and I will argue no> intelligence was suppressed)

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Miss R, whether or not it's irrelevant should be for the American people to decide through the political process, which begins with the free and open flow of information.

This information (the Fox report) is relevant even if Israeli foreknowledge (if they had it) is ultimately found to be irrelevant.

I don't see how merely reporting on this can be considered anti-Israel, off-limits, or somehow irrelevant.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I agree the report should be aired (and thsi is because I am pro-freedom of the press), but it is funny that in general, Fox News is called "Faux News," except when they film news you agree with.

Which is it? Is Fox News to be distrusted and marginalized? Or is it a trustworthy sorce?

In general, though, this is yet another example of a focus on Israel to the exclusion of other issues.

Chechans in Russia suffer far more than Palestinians. No mention. The Darfur is a horrible human rights disaster. Possibly one post on this.

Please explain this to me, I am completely perplexed.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Faux news is Faux news; come on - you know that. This report has been buried for years - so has Carl Cameron. And I don't even know how it resurfaced. In a few weeks it may be gone again.

The US is not about to go to war, for a second time, to protect Russian or Sudanese interests. Are you still confused?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Qrs,

Why no mention of those atrocities?

And there is no proof that in fact the Iraq or Afghani wars were instigated from Israel. You may claim proof, but there is no such proof. You know damned well that Cheney would not have orchestrated the wars unless it benefited Cheney. Israel does not dictate American foreign policy.

So why the focus on ONE country to the exclusion of others?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

I will concede that I do not KNOW (with hard evidence) anything about the real reasons for war. But, there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that Israel benefits from the war in Iraq and will benefit from the war in Iran. It does not take a genius to figure it out.

And, I will concede that Israel does not alone benefit.

There are other actors who benefit - in the defense, oil, and financial industries, no doubt. They may very well be the principal beneficiaries, and I focus on them repeatedly. Maybe you don't notice, because you don't mind it when I do.

In fact, I posted five things yesterday, not about Israel. But, none of them seems to interest you.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

I am not saying you only post about Israel (and never said that).

But whenever you post about Israel it is negative, and you focus on it repeatedly. That is my point. You focus exclusively on America and Israel as the axis of evil in the world, when in fact they are two countries amongst many - and many horrible state actors.

Whether or not Israel benefits from a war doesn't mean they started a war. Iran benefitted from a war in Iraq, and yet I am not positing that they instigated the war. You should know by now correlation does not mean causation.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Actually, to be fair, I am blaming you, and it is not you.

I really should place the blame where blame is due, and that is JC.

My appologies, QRS. You really are not the one who has started a majority of the laughably one sided posts.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Blame? For reporting facts? These are important posts. The mainstream media is decidedly one sided in favor or Israel. It's about time people saw something different.

You don't need to go too far to find ample news coverage applauding Israel and blaming Palestinians.

I applaud him and stand "blamed" by you with him.

For someone who is a staunch defender of the freedom to express yourself, it's odd that you insist on dictating what others should express.

You are perfectly free to express your views on Israel. And indeed you have. Stop trying to inhibit others from expressing their own views of the issues by assigning "blame."

You cannot force people through blame to approve of Israeli conduct. It just doesn't work. Provide valid reasons and convince us. Otherwise, you can only blame misguided Israeli policies for failing to win support.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

I just read your other comment now. I never called America and Israel an "axis of evil."

America happens to be the only superpower in the world and it just happens to be repeatedly throwing its weight against the countries Israel does not like.

I live in America. These policies strongly affect my existence and people around the world increasingly hate us for these policies. Why should I then pretend that these are not important issues and instead talk about Darfur? You're just not making sense.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I believe in freedom of thought. I am not saying you do not have the right to express yourself. (and never have)

But you should be aware of the consequence of expressing yourself as you have. You are perceived as anti-Israel and anti-freedom when you focus on a country that actually celebrates freedom as one of the worst violators of freedom. You also delegitimize all this blog stands for when focusing on conspiracy theories.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS, no, of course you never said America is part of the axis of evil. I meant that metaphorically, based on the tenor of posts.

My point about the Darfur is that the plight of the Palestinian people have as much relevance (and connection to the US) to what is going on in the world as the plight of the Chechans and those in the Darfur. Yet no mention. Why?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

The trouble with Israel is that it only celebrates freedom for itself, while it exercises oppression against others.

What conspiracy theory? The official 9/11 story is nothing but a conspiracy theory - merely an official one.

And, no the Palestinian issue was mentioned on a number of occasions by "Al Qaeda" as being one of the reasons why "they hate us." American helicopters kill Palestinians and American bulldozers flatten their houses. So, it is very relevant to ask why? and to examine the issues carefully.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Anonymous Ruby said...

There is a plurality of people with varying views in Israel, just like here in the US. I have an Israeli friend who works on building home sites for both Palestinians and Israelis.

The US and Israeli government sadly do not reflect the many in their countries who disagree with these despicable, destructive, and very dangerous policies. Go to any cafe in Israel and you will hear vigorous debate with people on all sides.

We cannot make the mistake of indicting a whole country of persons, we only critique the government policies. The US government sure doesn't represent me.

Any information must be gleaned with a critical and misinformation must be picked out. However, I'm glad to know what's out there in the noosphere so I can best determine a path for myself.

I won't let myself identify so closely with ANY corporatocracy that I can't criticize them when their policies are detrimental to my own existence.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

I won't let myself identify so closely with ANY corporatocracy that I can't criticize them when their policies are detrimental to my own existence.

Nice!

Miss Arrr, I don't think we should be coming to any conclusions as to who is responsible because we just don't know. At this point the 'official' narrative full of inconsistencies.

P.S. Go Jews.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Anonymous vper1's spelling & grammar said...

*is

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

Oh, baby.

Not food enough for the family members, not good enough for me.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Okay, I will copy and paste what I said before, in a different post...

How many Palestinian lives have been saved by Israel? The number is quite staggering. Israel allows Palestinians into Israel to seek medical treatment. Of course, this has been taken advantage of, as there have been patients that strapped suicide bombs to their chest when they went to seek treatment. And yet how many Palestinians' lives have been saved when getting medical treatment in Israel?

How many progressive Palestinians actually prefer to live in Israel to Palestine? I am referring to those who suffer from horrible abuse for being gay, or those indepedent women who perhaps want to be sexually free. I am also speaking to women in general.

How greatly has the Palestinian education system improved since Israel has taken over the occupied territories? It has increased greatly indeed, and as a matter of fact, Palestinians in occupied territories are more educated than most Muslims in the Middle East.

Israel is far better than it is given credit for. THAT is my point, and it is painful to see post after post that only focuses on the negative.

Israel has a far better human rights record - with regards to MUSLIMS - than the MSM reports.

The fact that Paradise Now nearly won an Oscar (and won a Golden Globe) is proof positive that there is not a "zionist conspiracy" in the media.

And reexamining 9/11 is one thing. But the focus on Israel as the culprit is another. As I said before - just as much evidence (nay, more) evidence points to other nations being involved, rather than Israel. And yet no mention.

So the "reexamination" of 9/11 simply rings false.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

And reexamining 9/11 is one thing. But the focus on Israel as the culprit is another

Why? Shouldn't we consider all angles & motives?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

My point is you are *not* considering all angles and motives.

It's all Israel (and the U.S., of course), all the time.

This is helpful...how?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

I am not? How did you come to this conclusion?

It's all Israel (and the U.S., of course), all the time.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

vper1, Please point to a post which posits that a country other than the US or Israel was involved in 9/11. You claim such a post exists, so please point to it.

Please point to a post which does not demonize Israel. (when Israel is mentioned)

It is simply impossible to point to such a post!

It is one thing to fairly and contextually criticize Israel. This does not make a person anti-Israel. However, that is exactly what is NOT being done on this blog.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

vper1, Please point to a post which posits that a country other than the US or Israel was involved in 9/11. You claim such a post exists, so please point to it.

I never claimed a post existed, I feel you putting words in my mouth is unfair.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I am not? How did you come to this conclusion?

It's all Israel (and the U.S., of course), all the time.


This implies there is a place where some country is implicated other than Israel or the U.S.

I was not really point to YOU per se, btw - just to the blog in general.

You know I have a crush on you. ;-)

I also actually love qrswave - I want this to be known - I love her. She is a remarkable woman. I am simply frustrated, that is all.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

I love you too, now let's stop talking about this. We're getting nowhere fast.

We disagree on this issue. So, let's leave it at that. Arguing about it is unproductive.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger vper1 said...

I guess that means it's time for...

A Sexy Party !


?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

cut it out, vper1 :P

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

vper1...a sexy party? *bats eyelashes*

Do go on! :-p

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger efsaturn said...

What I got out of this series was that a) it was stifled. That always worries me. If it was simply about the 9/11 comment they could have been instructed to cut that out. b) that the company that does the eavesdropping thinks that their eavesdropping is being tracked. When this report would have aired (looks like a while back) we did not know about Bush's and NSA spying tactics. Now we do. Also hints of further spying that we do not know about. c) Is Israeli gov't paying our gov't to get this spy info? Obviously they were doing a better job then we are if they knew about 9/11 before. d) Not to say Israel is evil or Bush, but are they in cohoots regardless of their worthiness to good or evil. e) Are we paying Israel to spy for us? f) Was the computer program designed to look flawed so that our spying could be tracked? g) That investigations were started and stopped regarding the Comverse infosist company and their relation to their countries government and that it was the kiss of death to anyone's career to do so. H) that Amdocs knows all the billing info for this country's phone system doesn't surprise me. But just more evidence that we do not "produce" or do much in this country anymore. Thanks to the stockmarket and the stockholders and the big CEO's bowing to get a bigger profit margin.

It is worrisome all the way around.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Sorry...just needed to dredge one thing up...

Qrs stated...

You don't need to go too far to find ample news coverage applauding Israel and blaming Palestinians.

I take issue with this. In fact, I would argue just the opposite. I closely follow the news, and I disturbingly see one sided news in favor of the Palestinians. I really, honestly, I would like to see proof that the media is biased in favor of Israel. I would argue they are anything but.

For the record, this is now not about your stance on Israel. You are intractable, fine.

But I am curious - you said such a statement as if it was so obvious. I really would like to see evidence of this. Fox News is generally slanted in favor of Israel, but that's about it. None of the other channels are slanted in favor of Israel, and if anything, I have seen evidence that they are slanted in favor of Palestinians.

The sad thing is that you pretty much have to read Israeli news to read non biased news about Israel. The BBC, Guardian, CNN, major TV networks, New York Times...list goes on...I have repeatedly noticed an anti-Israeli bent to it all.

And it has culminated in the Academy Award nomination (and Golden Globe/Independent Spirit Award wins) of Paradise Now - a film that is clearly pro-suicide bomber, and even elevates suicide bombing.

So where is the proof of the pro-Israel slant?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

The last post is not a dig against the blog...it really is just a question. I am curious what media you are speaking to when you say news on Israel is slanted. It is not at all meant to be contentious. Just wanted to clarify.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

One more thing I want to say to JC...

I never once said you do not have the right to write anything in your posts.

Of course you do. That is not at issue.

What is at issue is whether you write one-sided posts that exaggerate Israel's faults while downplaying the faults of other countries around the world.

Of course there is a first amendment right to write pretty much every word you have typed. You absolutely are within your rights to type everything, and I would be the first person to defend that right in a court of law - yes - YOUR right to speak.

I do not want any confusion about my stance.

I disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Just want to state something.

I finally saw the entire Fox News report.

None of it proves that Israel knew about 9/11 prior to it occurring. It is all conjecture! They have no proof about Amdocs - yet state that the data *could* fall into the wrong hands. Yeah - anything COULD happen. There is no proof it DID happen.

In fact, the same report shows Mossad came to the US to warn of a possible attack coming, and yet the US did not do anything. This falls back in with the criminal negligence of the Bush administration and how they handled 9/11.

The only thing the report proved was that Israel was spying on the US. I will not disagree with that. It is likely true. Is that right? No. I do not justify every single action of Israel. That said, it is pretty well established that we live amongst a network of spies. MANY countries has spies, who are located around the world. Israel is not the only country to have spies. (not making it right, but just sayin')

Nonetheless, it does not show Israel PLANNED the attacks, and it does not even prove that Israel knew of the attacks. (it just gives evidence it is possible they might have)

Did they? I have no clue. What I am more concerned about is the fact that Bush had every indication the attacks were coming and chose to lay down on the job. Whether or not Israel knew - Bush should have known, and was warned.

If Israel in fact did know about 9/11 prior to the attacks and chose to hide it, they should be punished. But certainly they are far less at fault than BushCo's criminal negligence.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the mafia were israeli, would prosecution be antisemitic?

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Anon,

For the record, there has been a jewish mafia - Bugsy Seigel, Meyer Lansky. (just to name a few)

Prosecution is not antisemitic if it is contextual - if other mafia members, of other religions and ethnic backgrounds - are also prosecuted.

I never said it is antijewish/antisemitic to speak out against Israel.

However, it is antisemitic/antijewish when flaws found universally elsewhere (or even, in this case, in far greater numbers elsewhere) are lumped onto Israel as the one country that has these flaws.

THAT is what I take issue with. Notions such as "Israel is the worst violator of human rights," and "Zionism is racism," amongst others, in addition to flat out being untrue, are themselves hateful statements for that above reason.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

Miss r,

For the record, there still is a Jewish mafia. I'm sure they're just Jewish in name. Nevertheless, that's what they call themselves.

And, persons are not prosecuted collectively. So, I'm not sure why you insist that people engage only in comparitive condemnation.

Criminal law cannot exist without INDIVIDUAL accountability. It is no defense to say that someone else is doing something just as bad.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Qrs,

Are you saying that if everyone commits the same crimes, and only Muslims are singled out as the perpetuators of the crimes, you would be fine?

Because that is what you are pretty much saying is fine and dandy, with your logic.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

No, of course not.

I'm saying that crimes must be prosecuted one by one and that necessarily entails examining, questioning, and following motives, opportunities, and evidence, where ever it may lead.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Qrs,

We are in complete agreement. That is exactly how I feel.

And yet that is exactly what is not happening. Israel is irrationally singled out both here and on the world stage for crimes that are far more egregious elsewhere. I am all for accountability when Israel does bad things. I have repeatedly stated I disagree with many of Israel's policies.

But my point is that, like it or lump it, the harms Israel has committed simply pale in comparison to the harms committed by nations across the world. They pale in comparison to the harms the Palestinians commit.

And yet the UN chooses to selectively sanction Israel.

The harm to the rule of law from this is quite immence. The UN has lost all respectability and authority. And this was before the Iraq debacle and the appointment of John Bolton.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

No. Apparently, we are not in agreement. You insist on comparing before condemning and I reject that moral relativism.

Bad conduct must be condemned categorically, incident by incident, whoever the actor. Don't blame others for noticing Israel's bad conduct. Blame Israel.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

You just said you would not be okay with a law enforcement team that only goes after Muslims, and not any other group.

You do not see that that is exactly what you are doing to Israel?

I blame Israel when blame is due. I have readily admit Israel is not a perfect nation. I do not condone the attacks in Lebanon in 1982, or the sometimes overreaction to suicide bombing. This is just to name a few. I also would be horrified if it is proven that Israel knew about 9/11 and chose to do nothing when they could have stopped it.

Yet, I am more appalled by the systematic terrorism the Palestinians evoke time and again. I am more appalled at the fact that they purposely aim for women and children. I am more appalled at the fact that Hamas and Iran have stated they want to wipe Israel off the map. I am more appalled by the systematic slavery of Muslim women in Islamic fundie nations, who are forced to wear burkas and are property of the men. I am more opposed to such societies that kill people for being gay, for being different, for daring to question the status quo.

And I am most opposed at the notion at Islamic fundies have stated - repeatedly - that they want to spread this hatred across the world.

THAT is what I am opposed to.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

I am not a prosecutor. I am a person drawing attention to what is OBVIOUSLY ignored by mainstream media - Israeli responsibility and Israeli atrocities.

And what you characterize as sporadic overreaction is actually SYSTEMATIC overreaction. Yesterday, an 8 year old boy and a 15 year old boy were killed in a targeted attack by Israelis of a so-called Palestinian militant who according to Israeli officials had fired rockers into Israel.

Of course, we will never really know whether this "militant" was guilty as charged, will we?

And now, Israelis are starving Palestinians to get them to submit to their commands and threatening their newly elected leader with assasination.

Finally, as tragic as they are, everyone in the US already hears about Israeli civilian casualties in the MSM.

Miss r, I don't blame you for these things. But, you should give up trying to defend the indefensible.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

We in the US hear Palestinian propoganda passed as fact all the damned time. Please do not kid yourself.

Every death of a Palestinian civilian is a tragedy, and the Israelis readily admit this. They do not aim for the civilians, and they punish the military if they overstep their bounds.

Every death of an Israeli civilian is praised, and the Palestinian suicide bomber's families are rewarded.

There is no comparison between the two.

Please wake up and open your eyes. Look at what is happening. I have no idea how you can defend the indefensible.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

"They do not aim for the civilians, and they punish the military if they overstep their bounds."

Yeah, right.

"Every death of an Israeli civilian is praised, and the Palestinian suicide bomber's families are rewarded."

You're kidding, right? Do you commute to Brooklyn from the West Bank everyday? Because that never happens in the American mainstream media!

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

No idea who you linked to in your last post. The link did not work.

The American media tries to pretend as if killing those who plan suicide bombing in armed warfare is just as bad as suicide bombing in a mall. I see the two as distinctly different. This itself is a bias. The attempt to be "nonbiased" is itself a bias when the facts are biased against the Palestinians.

And yes, as a matter of fact, the Israeli Supreme Court reviews all actions by the military, and has put people in jail in the past for overstepping bounds.

The Palestinian kids who are killed by the IDF are tragic. But most of that is due to the fact that the suicide bombers hide out in civilian quarters and the deaths are hence unavoidable. Much of that also is due to kids who are armed with weapons and told to attack the troops - and do attack the troops. Yes - KIDS with guns. This is a problem. The parents who arm them are child abusers.

Let me add a little quote from the article you linked to about the kids who were killed.

Israeli aircraft on Monday blew up a truck carrying Islamic Jihad militants, killing two of them and three bystanders, including two children, Palestinian doctors said.

So they did not aim for kids. Rather, this goes back to what I am saying - the evil suicide bomber hid amongst civilians.

I blame this death squarely on Islamic Jihad operative Moner Sukar, the one who put those children in danger - purposely.

That is utterly indefensible. The man is a monster.

As far as the threat on the Hamas leader? Here is exactly what was said. (paraphrased, but gets to the guts of it)

Stop terrorism and we will give you aid. Pledge the destruction of Israel and plan suicide bombing attacks - and face assassination.

Yeah...if the Hamas leader decides to send terrorists into Israel to kill them all...I can see the justification for such a statement.

Israel is fighting for its very survival here.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger qrswave said...

The following are just two instances of demonstrated brutality by the Israeli Defense Forces, and the Israeli government let them get away with murder:

"Iman al-Hams was shot close to an Israeli watchtower in the southern Gaza town of Rafah when soldiers suspected her of planting a bomb.

The soldier admitted firing two shots from close range to "verify the kill", but denied shooting several more times."


Can you READ? She was 13 years old, she was already shot unconscious and he shot her twice at close range to VERIFY THE KILL. And he was ACQUITTED.

" The British government formally protested to Israel after the army officer who opened fire when the film-maker James Miller was shot dead in Gaza two years ago was acquitted of disciplinary charges.

The decision by the head of Israel's Southern Command to clear the officer overturned a recommendation by the military advocate general that he should be severely disciplined. Mr Miller was killed in Rafah in 2003 while walking back to his lodgings displaying a white flag and clearly identifying himself to troops as a journalist.

The officer acquitted yesterday has admitted opening fire and a 79-page report by Brigadier-General Avihai Mandelblit, the advocate general, held that the first lieutenant in the Bedouin Desert Reconnaissance Battalion had fired in clear breach of army rules of engagement.

Mr Miller's widow Sophy said the decision 'makes a mockery of Israeli claims that they follow due process where IDF soldiers have acted criminally and outside their own rules of engagement'. "


So much for your empty assertions.

IDF routinely engages in systematic murder of anyone who opposes them, Palestinian or not.

Miss r, you are brainwashed. Israel is an oppressor, an aggressor, and an occupier. No question about it.

 
At Wednesday, March 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

QRS,

I beg to differ. I have given you example after example of why Israel is not how you say it is. You choose to ignore them.

You have yet to put any real blame on the Palestinians who suicide bomb civilians and purposely aim for them.

THEY are the true oppressors. Sorry, QRS, I have read way too many reports, spoken and heard way too many people on BOTH sides of the issue, and frankly, have far too much of an independent mind to be brainwashed by ANY of this. I recognize when Israel is at fault. I have yet to see any real recognition that suicide bombing is truly evil on your part. You will say it in a little aside, but then go on to speak of the evil of Israel. Not sure if that makes you brainwashed.

Are there isolated incidents like what you described? Sure.

But Israel, the nation you focus on, has far more of a respect for the rule of law than Palestine. After Hamas entered power, they overturned every single law from the previous government in one foul swoop. SO MUCH FOR RULE OF LAW! There is a monetary fund that compensates the families of suicide bombing, and as you linked to a few weeks ago, suicide bombing seminars.

The goal is to attack civilians. Women. Children. Infants. There is no such goal on the part of the IDF.

Are there some abuses of power by Israel? Sure. But such abuse is not built into the system itself. Such abuse is less frequent than every other state in a similar situation, ESPECIALLY America.

And to be frank, there are far more human rights in Israel than in every other Middle Eastern nation.

Women have 100% equal rights with men in Israel. It is an ACTUAL democracy with respect for the rule of law. If you look at a nation's progressiveness over how they treat their gay people (which I do), Israel gives gay people full civil union rights. It is an open and secular society, which allows for religious pluralism. Israel sometimes goes over lines that should not be crossed because they face barbarians who actually train their children to suicide bomb. The suicide bomb planners hide in and amongst civilians, including young children. (To be clear - not saying all Palestinians are barbarians. But those who train their children to suicide bomb and terrorists who hide amongst children ARE barbarians.)

Then there is of course the outcry when IDF forces kill children...but never the outcry against the parents who teach their kids to be suicide bombers, or against the suicide bomb organizers, who hide amongst civilians. I have yet to hear a huge outcry of anger against THOSE people. Because THEY are the real monsters.

 
At Friday, July 21, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hahahah, you greasy little bastard - you have no right to do anything. go back to Italy, before we bathe you.

 
At Tuesday, September 14, 2010, Blogger Carmina said...

well if a news report can express his own opinions on a subject no matter what, I think that we have a serious problem here. As my pal Sildenafil said one time "your freedom of expression is one the undeniable human rights"

 
At Sunday, June 19, 2011, Blogger g4mes0nln said...

wow lol, nice one...
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sbobet
sbobet

 
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At Friday, April 18, 2014, Blogger Khaliqah Rahma said...

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