< HOME  Monday, March 06, 2006

Open Letter to Bush and Ahmedinejad

This is an excerpt from a February 22 online letter to Bush and Ahmedinejad from Courtenay Barnett, a lawyer and graduate of London University:
With peace firmly in focus, here is a question for both Presidents – how did Iran arrive at the point of a revolution in 1979 that led to your presidency – President Ahmadinejad?

Brief history
  • William Knox D’Arcy (English businessman of Irish descent) in 1901 agreed with the Shah of Persia a 60 year concession to explore oil in Persia.
  • D’Arcy formed a company in 1903, participating with the Burmah Oil Company in 1904, and D’Arcy’s interest was later bought out by the Burmah Oil Company.
  • The Anglo-Iranian Oil Company was established in 1909 (then the Anglo-Persian Oil Company), when a large oil field was discovered in Masjed Soleiman.
  • APOC took a 50% share holding in the Turkish Petroleum Company that was created about 1912.
  • In 1935 APOC changed its name to AIOC( Anglo-Iranian Oil Corporation).
  • In the early 1950s AIOC controlled all of the oil in Iran.
  • In 1951 Mohammad Mossadegh was democratically elected as Prime Minister of Iran.
  • In 1951 Mossadegh nationalised Iranian oil holdings, which set out to terminate the British stranglehold on Iranian oil interests. The passage of the Oil Nationalisation Bill lead to the Abadan crisis ( recall: Abadan in 1950 was the world’s largest oil refinery and Britain had direct stake holder interests in Iranian oil).
  • Britain challenged the nationalisation of Iranian oil in the International Court at the Hague, and on 22 July, 1952 Iran won a verdict in its favour against Britain.
  • In 1953 the CIA in conjunction with the British engineered a coup in Iran, and installed the Shah of Iran as leader ( i.e. democratic leadership was ousted because of oil interests protecting its British and American stake in Iranian oil).
  • In 1979, with substantial anti-American and anti-Western sentiments raging in Iran, the Mullahs were brought to power in a revolution ( note: the Shah’s Savak – secret police- and torture practices with US and British support did not exactly endear the Shah or the West to the majority of the Iranian people).
  • In 2006, against this historical background, is it a question of the pursuit of nuclear energy by Iran that will be reason for the likely war with Iran; or, does the Iranian oil bourse provide the real motivational factor for war ( as oil had done in 1953 when Iranian democracy was destroyed) – you decide.
I urge you to read the whole thing and pass it on.

Many thanks Byrne.

37 Comments:

At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

thx q, byrne,

brings back memories that. my parents worked for BHI in Iran. we left in november 1978. i remember watching our house burn down on the TV news.

knowing what i know now and havgin talked to both my parents about it i think iran had every right to kick us out.

still love the country and it's people though. hope to go back someday and not find it a nuclear wasteland do to some people's lies and delusions of grandeur.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

*due*

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

JC,

I simply have no words to express what you just said. Your logic is breathtaking.

Somehow, according to your logic, Iran had every right to kick you and your parents out, and yet Israel, which did not kick out Palestinians, does not have a right to act as they have.

Now, this post is not meant to be contentious. I am just curious.

How on earth does such logic add up?

This is not a rhetorical question. I simply am curious...how do you reconsile those two thoughts?

This is not meant to start a fight.

I simply am at a loss over this, and would like to know how you reconsile this.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

iranians as do palestinians have a right to self determination. read the post i commented on.

my parents who worked to help oppress the iranians conceded to this. they regret their actions. they actually feel remorse.

they know what went on.

you on the other hand, how can you knowingly say something like: "Israel … did not kick out Palestinians," when even israeli historians and former politicians admit to doing just that?

do you (1) honestly don't know this; (2) refuse to face up to facts; or (3) just plain lie pathologically?

furthermore, with my experience of your ability to reason, the fact that my logic is breathtaking to you does not at all surprise me.

be all that as it may, i can quite well understand why you feel that your race of superior beings should be allowed to rule over us lesser sheep. of course you wouldn't understand why we might oppose this.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

i have nothing more to say to you, sayan.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Well said, "JC"--qrswave also refuses to simply examine basic precepts of Talmudism, the crux to Jews, and what makes Jews categorically noxious. For Jews hold God essentially worships Jews, Jews taken collectivistically, then understood as female entity, God the male, pursuing them as male pursues female. This male-female relationship of Jews to God is also reflected in Biblic Books of Hosea, Ezekiel, and Song of Songs. Qrswave refuses then to face these basic, simple facts of reality and pretends she's being "fair"; she's actually traitor to herself, her people, truth, reality, and God, despite all her tiresome and absurd pietist pretensions so frustrating to such forthright patriots like myself.

Jews thus understand a SUBJECTIVISTIC reality which is psychologic foundation for all their well-known lies and habitual lying--it's why we Christians understand Jews as worshippers of lies and lying, their famous "Kol Nidre" prayer well indicating their worship of lies and lying, absolving Jews in advance for any lies they strategically speak to the "goyim" (cattle).

Hence such Talmudic religion--a war program against rest of humanity--is reason, for example, Jews run the Federal Reserve Bank (Fed) counterfeiting fraud as their spokesman, Jew Bernard Lazare essentially admits in his amazing tell-all revelation, "Antisemitism" published back in 1894. Qrswave pretends to understand the Fed, but refuses to note the overwhelming Judaic connection, association, foundation, and actually, well-known history. Ck Mike A. Hoffman II's "Judaism's Strange Gods" and G. Edward Griffin's "Creature From Jekyll Island."

Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

be all that as it may, i can quite well understand why you feel that your race of superior beings should be allowed to rule over us lesser sheep. of course you wouldn't understand why we might oppose this.

I never said I am superior. You are putting words in my mouth.

I also did not know your parents worked to oppress Iranians.

As far as the "fact" that Palestinians were kicked out - then please explain why 20% of Israel is Arab Israeli. Please explain why there was a Miss Israel that is Palestinian. Please explain the fact that your assertions that Israel is an apartheid nation is a "fact."

http://www.masada2000.org/Apartheid-State.html

Proof positive there is not the apartheid often stated.

Most of the land in the main part of Israel was purchased lawfully.

Can you say the same about pretty much every other nation on this planet? I think not.

Anyway, I was not trying to argue with you who refuses to look at facts/reason/rationality/any semblance of fairness.

I was just inquiring as to how you justified what I saw to be a completely contradictory position.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Problem is "Miss R," people replying to u seems to make u think they thus dignify ur brainless lies. U live in ur own subjectivistic world, pushing ur putrid holohoax religion--then u wonder why people detest u insane liars. But it's an insanity that works, I admit--as long as u have stupid gentiles like the WWII generation of present-day "elders" whom u'd like to presuade are the "greatest generation" for murdering the noble Germans. But the "worm" will turn; history is cyclic. Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

liar,

Historian Benny Morris: Was Mistake Not To Complete Transfer in '48

Survival of the Fittest (an interview with Historian Benny Morris)
By Ari Shavit Haaretz, Magazine Section, 9 January 2004

According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

"About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg."

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

"The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres."

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."

Are you saying that Ben-Gurion was personally responsible for a deliberate and systematic policy of mass expulsion?

"From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created."

Ben-Gurion was a "transferist"?

"Of course. Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist."

I don't hear you condemning him.

"Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here."

When ethnic cleansing is justified

Benny Morris, for decades you have been researching the dark side of Zionism. You are an expert on the atrocities of 1948. In the end, do you in effect justify all this? Are you an advocate of the transfer of 1948?

"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands."

We are talking about the killing of thousands of people, the destruction of an entire society.

"A society that aims to kill you forces you to destroy it. When the choice is between destroying or being destroyed, it's better to destroy."

There is something chilling about the quiet way in which you say that.

"If you expected me to burst into tears, I'm sorry to disappoint you. I will not do that."

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Benny Morris is a sham of a historian. You might as well cite to Noam Chomsky.

That said, I will actually (when I get home) prove you are incorrect in your recent statement.

I am not going to call you a liar. You are simply incorrect.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

One more thing I want to add.

There were a dozen Israeli rapes?

Maybe that happened. Is that supposed to be evidence that Israel does not have a right to exist, or is illegitimate?

Is it horrible if the rapes occurred? Of course. Then again, twelve is an awfully small number to claim it was systematic. More rapes occur every day in countries around the world. If the rapes happened, I am all for prosecuting the rapists to the fullest extent of the law. But twelve is hardly indicative of anything.

Not sure what you were trying to say aboout the fact that there were twelve rapes.

What about honor killings that occur every day in the Middle East? What about the fact that women are killed if they are raped? What about fact that women where burkas and have no rights in the Middle East?

Yet 12 rapes = evil zionism?

HUH???

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

"We Created Terror Among the Arabs"

The Deir Yassin Massacre

By WILLIAM MARTIN

On April 9, 1948, members of the underground Jewish terrorist group, the Irgun, or IZL, led by Menachem Begin, who was to become the Israeli prime minister in 1977, entered the peaceful Arab village of Deir Yassin, massacred 250 men, women, children and the elderly, and stuffed many of the bodies down wells. There were also reports of rapes and mutilations. The Irgun was joined by the Jewish terrorist group, the Stern Gang, led by Yitzhak Shamir, who subsequently succeeded Begin as prime minister of Israel in the early '80s, and also by the Haganah, the militia under the control of David Ben Gurion. The Irgun, the Stern Gang and the Haganah later joined to form the Israeli Defense Force. Their tactics have not changed.

The massacre at Deir Yassin was widely publicized by the terrorists and the numerous heaped corpses displayed to the media. In Jaffe, which was at the time 98 percent Arab, as well as in other Arab communities, speaker trucks drove through the streets warning the population to flee and threatening another Deir Yassin. Begin said at the time, "We created terror among the Arabs and all the villages around. In one blow, we changed the strategic situation."

From about 1938 on to the founding of Israel, Begin was the leader of the Irgun. That group regularly assassinated English soldiers in Palestine and frequently hung their booby-trapped bodies in public places. Under Begin, the Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, killing 97 British civil servants. The Stern Gang, under Shamir, also assassinated the U.N. representative to Palestine, Count Bernadotte, in 1948.

But Deir Yassin was not the only massacre by the Israeli Defense Force. That army, under Moshe Dayan, took the unarmed and undefended village of al-Dawazyma, located in the Hebron hills, massacred 80 to 100 of its residents, and threw their bodies into pits. "The children were killed by breaking their heads with sticks ... The remaining Arabs were then sealed in houses, as the village was systematically razed ..." (Nur Masalha, The Historical Roots of the Palestinian Refugee Question).

We read further. According to Yitzhak Rabin's biography:

We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Alon repeated his question: "What is to be done with the population?" BG waved his hand in a gesture, which said: Drive them out! ... I agreed that it was essential to drive the inhabitants out.

Continuing the narrative, Ben-Gurion University historian Benny Morris writes in "Operation Dani and the Palestinian Exodus from Lydda and Ramle in 1948", Middle East Journal, 40

At 13.30 hours on 12 July [1948]... Lieutenant-Colonel Yitzhak Rabin, operation Dani head Operation, issued the following order: '1. The inhabitants of Lydda must be expelled quickly without attention to age. They should be directed to Beit Nabala,... Implement Immediately.' A similar order was issued at the same time to the Kiryati Brigade concerning the inhabitants of the neighboring town of Ramle, occupied by Kiryati troops that morning... On 12 and 13 July, the Yaftah brigades carried out their orders, expelling the 50-60,000 remaining inhabitants of and refugees camped in and around the two towns....

About noon on 13 July, Operation Dani HQ informed IDF General Staff/Operations: 'Lydda police fort has been captured. [The troops] are busy expelling the inhabitants.... Lydda's inhabitants were forced to walk eastward to the Arab legion lines; many of Ramle's inhabitants were ferried in trucks or buses. Clogging the roads... the tens of thousands of refugees marched, gradually shedding their worldly goods along the way. It was a hot summer day. The Arab chroniclers, such as Sheikh Muhammed Nimr al Khatib, claimed that hundreds of children died in the march, from dehydration and disease. One Israeli witness described the spoor: the refugee column 'to begin with [jettisoned] utensils and furniture and, in the end, bodies of men, women, and children.

There were many other such villages with Arabic names that have almost been expunged from memory--but not quite. These facts have always been known to some historians, however they have been consistently denied by the official Israeli histories, as, indeed, Israel has never taken any responsibility for the exodus of Palestinians from the land of the present state of Israel.

Within the last 10 to 20 years, however, there has been an exponential increase in historical studies of the origins of the state of Israel which have coincided with the release by Israel of many, but not all, of the historical and military archives. Ben-Gurion University historian Benny Morris, as well as others, have systematically mined these documents and found numerous instances of massacres, and, by the way, not one shred of evidence for the frequently repeated official Israeli lie that the Palestinians fled Palestine because the surrounding Arab states told them to.

In fact, according to UN estimates, which some say are conservative, 750,000 Palestinians fled the site of the present Jewish state in 1948. Those refugees and their descendents now number about 4.5 million and constitute the largest and longest standing refugee population in the world. Many live in squalid refugee camps distributed in the surrounding Arab states or in the West Bank or Gaza, many retain the titles to their land, recognized by the British before 1948 or the Ottomans before that , and many retain the keys to their front doors of their former homes in what is now Israel, whether or not those doors still exist.

The '67 War generated a second wave of about 300,000 refugees from the West Bank and Gaza who were either expelled through direct or psychological methods or fled the Israel aerial attacks on the territories which included the extensive use of napalm.

The reader is invited to read the Hagana's Plan D , which has been available in English since the 1960s and was a military strategy of 1948 that entailed the evacuation of the Palestinian population from the areas of a future Jewish state.

Those who invoke the suicide bombings against mostly Israeli civilians to infer the righteousness of the Israeli cause live in a twilight of psychic denial of an otherwise unambiguous historical record: the state of Israel was founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing.

The suicide bombings inside Israel, the first of which only occurred in 1994, after 25 years of occupation, is only a side show. That is a symptom and long way from the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

There will never be a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict until Israel takes responsibility, under U.N. Resolution 194, calling for reparation of the Palestinian refugees, and recognizes the immense suffering it caused at that time. We need also to recognize the US is giving unqualified moral support to a state that is based on racial purity and one that is intrinsically expansionist.

William James Martin is a visiting Instructor of Mathematics at the University of Central Florida, Orlando. He can be reached at: martinw@email.unc.edu

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

Quotes on Zionism by Vladimir "Ze'ev" Jabotinsky

Zionist colonisation must be either terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonisation can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in a position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs... A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the near future. [Marie Syrkin, 'Labor Zionism Replies', Menorah Journal (Spring 1935), p. 72]

If you wish to colonise a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some 'rich man' or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else - or else, give up your colonisation, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonisation, colonisation is impossible, not 'difficult,, not 'dangerous', but IMPOSSIBLE !... Zionism is a colonising adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through with playing at colonisation. [Vladimir Jabotinsky, 'The Iron Law', Selected Writings (South Africa, 1962), p. 26]

[Above quotes taken from Zionism In the Age of the Dictators: A Reappraisalby Lenni Brenner © Croom Helm, Kent (Great-Britain) and Laurence Hill, Westport, Conn. in the USA, 277 p. ISBN (GB) 0-7099-0628-5; USA (paperback) 0-88208-164-0 in 1983.]

[T]here are no meaningful differences between our “militarists” and our “vegetarians.” One prefers an iron wall of Jewish bayonets, the other proposes an iron wall of British bayonets, the third proposes an agreement with Baghdad, and appears to be satisfied with Baghdad’s bayonets – a strange and somewhat risky taste’ but we all applaud, day and night, the iron wall. We would destroy our cause if we proclaimed the necessity of an agreement, and fill the minds of the Mandatory with the belief that we do not need an iron wall, but rather endless talks. Such a proclamation can only harm us. Therefore it is our sacred duty to expose such talk and prove that it is a snare and a delusion.

Two brief remarks: In the first place, if anyone objects that this point of view is immoral, I answer: It is not true; either Zionism is moral and just or it is immoral and unjust. But that is a question that we should have settled before we became Zionists. Actually we have settled that question, and in the affirmative.

We hold that Zionism is moral and just. And since it is moral and just, justice must be done, no matter whether Joseph or Simon or Ivan or Achmet agree with it or not.

There is no other morality.

All this does not mean that any kind of agreement is impossible, only a voluntary agreement is impossible. As long as there is a spark of hope that they can get rid of us, they will not sell these hopes, not for any kind of sweet words or tasty morsels, because they are not a rabble but a nation, perhaps somewhat tattered, but still living. A living people makes such enormous concessions on such fateful questions only when there is no hope left. Only when not a single breach is visible in the iron wall, only then do extreme groups lose their sway, and influence transfers to moderate groups. Only then would these moderate groups come to us with proposals for mutual concessions. And only then will moderates offer suggestions for compromise on practical questions like a guarantee against expulsion, or equality and national autonomy.

I am optimistic that they will indeed be granted satisfactory assurances and that both peoples, like good neighbors, can then live in peace. But the only path to such an agreement is the iron wall, that is to say the strengthening in Palestine of a government without any kind of Arab influence, that is to say one against which the Arabs will fight. In other words, for us the only path to an agreement in the future is an absolute refusal of any attempts at an agreement now.


[Vladimir Jabotinsky: "The Iron Wall (We and the Arabs)" 1923. First published in Russian under the title "O Zheleznoi Stene" in Rassvyet, 4 November 1923. Published in English in Jewish Herald (South Africa), 26 November 1937.]

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

What about Munich? Is that not a brutal slaying of Israelis? (not in Israel, but still)

What about the 1967 War? 1973 War? 1948 War?

Whether or not there was suicide bombing until 1994 (and I will look into this), there was certainly horrible violence until then.

And it was not started by Israel. The 1967 War was a war of necessity, because they stopped an incredibly documented attack from happening.

And you have yet to dispute anything I said earlier.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

For the record, your citations are as accurate as Appy/Thor's.

I mean that literally.

More later, when I get home and can cite to my numerous books on the subject.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

www.noaravim.ios.st (noaravim meaning "no Arabs").

The web poster writes, "I know these are old jokes, but jokes about Arabs will last forever (at least until every Arab dies, at which point there will be parties). Let us begin:

"A man stood before the firing squad, and they asked him about his last wish. So the man said, 'I want to become a Muslim.' They asked him, 'Why?' The man said, 'If I'm going to die, at least let another Arab die, too!'

"What's the difference between a dead Indian and a dead Arab? They build houses on the Indian's grave, and they dance on the Arab's grave! (I don't mean to make fun of Indians! God forbid! I don't have anything against them! The Arabs are my target!)

"Why did the Arab cross the road? Who cares? The important thing is that he gets hit by a car!

"Arabs are like cockroaches! We kill one and dozens more appear! (Sorry, this is sad and not funny).

"What does one Arab in the ocean mean? Pollution! What do all the Arabs in the ocean mean? Or haven't you figured it out yet?

"This is a riddle that sounds better in English: What's black, blue, and really ugly (preferably dead)? An Arab after I catch him!

"You are all invited to add whatever jokes you want here (as long as they're anti-Arab jokes, of course)."

On another site, www.humorportal.co.il, the following jokes appear:

"What can you do if you're bored and there's an Arab nearby? Hit his head against the wall.

"What's the difference between comedy and tragedy? Comedy is when a ship full of Arabs sinks, while tragedy is when some of them escape by swimming to the shore.

"What's the difference between an Arab and an ape? The tail.

"What's black and goes on top of an Arab? The boot of an Israeli soldier.

"What's black, hard, and long, and goes in an Arab's mouth? An M-16.

"Why did the Arab take the donkey with him to the market? To have someone to talk to."

On www.noaravim.ios.st, a corner is devoted to the musings of "those who hate Arabs". Comments include, "I hate the Arabs, and hatred of them flows in my veins.

"I hate them and I will always hate them! The Arabush [derogatory phrase for Arabs] are sons of whores. Death to the Arabs. No Arabs, no attacks!

"Damn, the Arabs are sons of whores! So is the Arab woman who blew herself up in Givat Zeev. That was 10 minutes away from me. Damn all the Arabs, I can't stand them anymore!

"A question: why do we write 'Arab dogs'? What have dogs ever done to you? What has man's best friend done to you to despise them so? Aside from that, this site is great!"

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

And what about the Holocaust cartoons in Iran? What about the shocking antijewish sentiment in newspapers/mass media in the entire Arab world?

It is far worse than anything in Israel. And for the record, jews say self deprecating jokes far worse than what you posted.

You clearly (and repeatedly) have shown to have zero sense of humor.

http://www.boomka.org/ - This is Israelis making fun of themselves.

You cannot understand this as someone without a sense of humor. Jews have said far worse than what you cited as the jokes - and in fact I will argue that it is NOT that common to joke about Arabs/Muslims/etc. At least not even on the same planet with as common it is to show repulsive antijewish hatred that is seen across the Middle East.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Benjamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

David Ben-Gurion, one of the father founders of Israel, described Zionist aims in 1948 thus: "A Christian state should be established [in Lebanon], with its southern border on the Litani river. We will make an alliance with it. When we smash the Arab Legion's strength and bomb Amman, we will eliminate Transjordan too, and then Syria will fall. If Egypt still dares to fight on, we shall bomb Port Said, Alexandria and Cairo... And in this fashion, we will end the war and settle our forefathers' account with Egypt, Assyria, and Aram"

"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in a position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs..." Vladimir Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall, 1923.

"[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts"', New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maeir, March 8, 1969.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." David Ben Gurion, future Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!... Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through with playing at colonizing." Vladimir Jabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud), The Iron Wall, 1923.

"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940. From "A Solution to the Refugee Problem" Joseph Weitz, Davar, September 29, 1967, cited in Uri Davis and Norton Mevinsky, eds., Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21.

"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

"...if people become accustomed to the large figure and we are actually obliged to accept the return of the refugees, we may find it difficult, when faced with hordes of claimants, to convince the world that not all of these formerly lived in Israeli territory. It would, in any event, seem desirable to minimize the numbers...than otherwise." Israeli official Arthur Lourie in a letter to Walter Eytan, director general of the Israeli Foreign Ministry (ISA FM 2564/22). From Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1947-49", p. 297.

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...." Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

One of the most enduring and deceptive slogans of Zionism was coined by Israel Zangwill almost 100 years ago: Palestine was a "land without people for a people without land."

After paying a visit to Palestine in 1891, the Hebrew essayist Achad Ha-Am commented: "Abroad we are accustomed to believe that Israel is almost empty; nothing isgrown here and that whoever wishes to buy land could come here and buy what his heart desires. In reality, the situation is not like this. Throughout the country it is difficult to find cultivable land which is not already cultivated."

The removal of Arabs bodily from Palestine is part of the Zionist plan to "spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment...Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried away discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

In 1899, Davis Triestsch wrote to Herzl: " I would suggest to you to come round in time to the "Greater Palestine" program before it is too late... the Basle program must contain the words "Great Palestine" or "Palestine and its neighbouring lands" otherwise it's nonsense. You do not get ten million Jews into a land of 25,000 Km2".

Vladimir Jabotinsky (the founder and advocate of the Zionist terrorist organizations): "Has any People ever been seen to give up their territory of their own free will? In the same way, the Arabs of Palestine will not renounce their sovereignty without violence." Quoted by Maxime Rodinson in Peuple Juif ou Problem Juif. (Jewish People or Jewish Problem).

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 "We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes, "The old will die and the young will forget."

Also Ben Gurion stated " The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the Nile to the Euphrates."

"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created State of Israel of the Freedom Party (Herut), a political party closely akin in its organization, method, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties." [Begin, and Yitzhak Shamir who were members of the party became Prime Ministers.] Albert Einstein, Hanna Arendt and other prominent Jewish Americans, writing in The New York Times, protest the visit to America of Menachem Begin, December 1948.

Martin Buber, Jewish Philosopher, addressed Prime Minister Ben Gurion on the moral character of the state of Israel with reference to the Arab refugees in March 1949: "We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in its creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; a refugee population in Diaspora."

" It lies upon the people's shoulders to prepare for the war, but it lies upon the Israeli army to carry out the fight with the ultimate object of erecting the Israeli Empire." Moshe Dayan (Israel Defense and Foreign Minister), on February 12 1952. Radio "Israel."

Aba Eban (the Israeli Foreign Minister) stated arrogantly: " If the General Assembly were to vote by 121 votes to 1 in favor of "Israel" returning to the armistice lines-- (pre June 1967 borders) "Israel" would refuse to comply with the decision." New York Times June 19, 1967.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I don't blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, .The Arab villages are not there either. Nahal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibat; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kfar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al Shuman. There is not one single place that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan's address to the Technion, Haifa (as Quoted in Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969).

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969.

"The only solution is Eretz Israel [Greater Israel], or at least Western Eretz Israel [all the land west of Jordan River], without Arabs. There is no room compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe." Joseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January5, 1973 p.2.

"Hitler's legal power was based upon the 'Enabling Act', which was passed quite legally by the Reichstag and which allowed the Fuehrer and his representatives, in plain language, to be what they wanted, or in legal language, to issue regulations having the force of law. Exactly the same type of act was passed by the Knesset [Israeli's Parliament] immediately after the 1067 conquest granting the Israeli governor and his representatives the power of Hitler, which they use in Hitlerian manner." Dr. Israel Shahak, Chairperson of the Israeli League for Human and Civil Rights, and a survivor of the Bergen Belsen concentration camp, Commenting on the Israeli military's Emergency Regulations following the 1967 War. Palestine, vol. 12, December 1983.

I see "many similarities in the oppression of Blacks in South Africa and of Palestinians." Dennis Goldberg, a Jewish South African sentenced to life imprisonment for "conspiring to overthrow the apartheid regime," is released through the intercession of Israeli officials, states on arrival in Israel, March 1985. He called for a total economic boycott of South Africa, singling out Israelas a major ally of the apartheid regime. Pledging never to stay in Israel, Goldberg moves to London.

"It is forbidden to sell apartments in the Land of Israel to Gentiles." Mordecai Eliayaho, the Israeli Chief Rabbi commenting on an attempt by a Palestinian to buy an apartment owned by the Jewish National Fund in East Jerusalem. Ha'aretz January 17, 1986. The same situation was repeated many times, and that decision is legalized now by the Israeli Supreme Court.

"Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same." Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.

"I am a black South African, and if I were to change the names, a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank could describe events in South Africa." Archbishop Desmond Tuto, observes during Christmas visit to Jerusalem, December 25, 1989. From Israeli daily Ha'aretz, cited in Palestine Perspectives, January/February 1990.

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya [immigration], and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country." Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Avivmemorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

The Balfour Declaration to Baron Rothchild, on the 2nd of November, 1917: "His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

"In Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country" Lord Balfour in private memorandum to Lord Curzon, 11 August 1919.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979; Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here [Palestine] to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe should be left." Jospeh Weitz, Davar, 29 September 1967 from "My Diary and Letters to the Children", Massada, 1965, III, p. 293.

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

"When we [followers of the prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine...the majority of Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from us." Martin Buber, to a New York audience, Jewish Newsletter, June 2, 1958.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Akber said...

http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html

Jews live in peace in Israel now:

"A tight-knit community Like other minorities, many Iranian Jews feared an uncertain future, although their religious rights were enshrined in the Constitution. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community remains the largest in the Middle East outside of Israel, and human rights activists confirm that members are not persecuted because of their religion."

Muslims saved Jews in Spain from the Visigoths and the "Golden Period" of the Jews was under Muslim rule in Andalus (Spain).

European Jews fled to Turkey and were welcomed for many hundreds of years.

The problem is Israel, not the Jews. The Zionist goal is to mix the two through words like "Semite", "Judeo-Christian", "Arab" etc. Jews are Arabs and Arabs are Semites and the two religions are extremely close in belief and in practice. Israel, its founders and its proponents are a different story altogether.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Akber said...

Sorry, typo: I meant:

Jews live in peace in Iran even now:

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

for anyone else, other than the sayan, who may be following this i'd like to make my position clear.

if i have to choose between the positions of martin buber, albert einstein, hannah arendt, israel shahhak, and the vainglorios imaginings of the sayan, i'll go with the former.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger jc said...

also,

this claim: "Israel … did not kick out Palestinians," as far as i can tell from the words of the people who were actually involved, and they were all israelis, is false.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

JC's vitriolic/irrational hatred towards me is amusing, but I must ask...what is a sayan?

The definitive discrediting of everything stated will follow.

For the record, I like you, akber. A reasoned debate is possible, without getting down and dirty. I really think you are a decent human being.

I also want to reaffirm my positive feelings for qrs.

Definitive and well documented post that blows everything stated by JC thus far out of the water to follow.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Oh, just found that a sayan is someone who is supposed to represent Israel who lives abroad.

I actually have no affiliation with Israel, nor do I represent the country. So that is simply a lie. I have on repeated occasions criticized the Israeli government, when appropriate. I do not defend the government no matter what - but rather, I actually look at facts. (unheard of, I know!)

I just am appalled at the complete mistatements of fact that are repeatedly and viciously uttered by JC.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Inaccuracy about Israel #1: Israel is an apartheid nation
No, Israel is NOT an apartheid nation. Arab Israelis have more rights in Israel than they do in any other country in the Middle Eastern world. They are treated better, and they have longer life spans than in any other country in the Middle Eastern world.

I do not just spout things off. I have actual proof of this!

A poll, conducted in 2000, showed that 83 % of Arab Israelis were opposed to being included in any Palestinian state. The reasons they stated? They wanted democratic rule and a good quality of life. (This was conducted by an Arab Israeli weekly called Kul Al Arab – see Andrea Levin, “Israeli Arab Rights and Wrongs,” On CAMERA column, February 14, 2003)

But there is more.

Although the life expectancy of Israeli Palestinians may be lower than Israeli Jews, in fact, it is higher than what is found in ANY other Middle Eastern nation. Period. They have a life expectancy of 77 years for women and 74 for men. (www.cbs.gov.il) Syria’s is in the upper 60s for both. (www.sikkuy.org.il/report/Sikkuy%20report%202002.doc)

So in fact it is shown that Palestinians have a HIGHER quality of life than in neighboring nations. But there is more.

Israel is a Jewish state, but the PLO in fact recently made Islam the official and SOLE religion. (James Bennet, “Letter from the Middle East: Arab Showpiece? Could it be the West Bank?” New York Times, April 1, 2003) In contrast, Muslims are free to practice their religion in both Israel and the occupied territories.

To quote Alan Dershowitz, in his book The Case for Israel, There is, in fact, some discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel. Most cannot serve in the army but few would choose to fight against fellow Arabs if given that option. Until recently, Arabs could not buy homes in certain Jewish areas, just as Jews cannot buy homes in Arab villages. A decision by the Israeli Supreme Court in 2002 ruled that the government may not allocate land based on religion or ethnicity and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose: “The principle of equality prohibits the state from distinguishing between its citizens on the basis of religion or nationality, Chief Justice Aharon Barak wrote. “The principle also applies to the allocation of state land…The Jewish character of the state does not permit Israel to discriminate between its citizens.” – cited to Quadan v. Israel Lands Administration. HCJ (Israeli Supreme Court) 6698/95, March 8, 2000

If this is not enough to convince you that Israel is NOT an apartheid nation, then the below link goes through every other remaining argument.

http://www.masada2000.org/Apartheid-State.html

Next post will definitively dispute JC’s assertions that Israel was basically illegal when formed, and that Israelis stole land from Palestinians en masse.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Akber said...

The whole arguments you presented is about Israeli Arabs. For the record, Israeli Arabs are the Muslims in Israel.

To maintain a false democracy, Israel encloses the rest of the Arabs in a walled human safari park, enclosing it 360 degrees, controlling water, travel, air, food, taxes, defense and everything else.

It employs checkpoints inside this safari park at will, meting out humiliating inspections of people going about their daily chores. It allows Jews to go and grab any piece of land within this human safari park for a "settlement".

It refuses to abide by the laws of war, international law or the UN law.

The safari park humans would love to become citizens of Israel :) - they work there - but that would tilt the demographic balance of the Knesset!

So, keeping the majority of the population in exile or in a human safari park so that a minority can rule -- exactly what South Africa did, and exactly what Israel is doing.

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Before I go on, I ask you all to read Hamas's charter, calling for the destruction of Israel. I ask you to pick up any newspaper in the Middle East, and see the most vicious lies being spread about Jews and Israelis. You will see Holocaust denial and the most shocking and deplorable of images.

Then we can entertain JC's fanciful assertions that Israel is racist.

Oh, and before I go on, he speaks of Israel's rulers and what they said. In fact - it is doubtful as to how many Palestinians actually have a claim to Israel! So that statement - not racist.

Furthermore, most of his quotes were said in the 1960s. Before and since then, there has been attempt after attempt after attempt to give Palestinians land. (which has been rebuffed) It is now pretty universally understood that there will be a two state solution. So much of what was said was rendered moot.

Furthermore, I never have defended all of Israel's actions, and to the extent such statements were said - I do not approve. And yet this does not invalidate Israel. I want to further add that I have yet to see a single post of JC's that disagrees with even one action taken by a Muslim.

You would think Muslims are perfect, based on that!

The truth is far from that - read the crap the President of Iran has stated - denying the Holocaust, stating his desire to drive Israel into the sea. This is supposed to be worse than that?

 
At Monday, March 06, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Okay, akber, you raise points I will answer before watching the Colbert Report and then going to beed. I am tired and need sleep - a refutation of the falsehood that Israel stole land from the Palestinians will follow tomorrow.

I am glad it is now pretty much established that Arab Israelis are rather well off in Israel - compared to any other Middle Eastern nation.

My next post will speak to how Palestinians in the territories - given the situation and history - suffer exaggerated harm, and are treated better than any other comparable group in a comparable situation in the history of the world.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Okay, I decided to answer akber’s recent post before going into the false idea that somehow Israeli citizens stole land from the Palestinians.

In order to look at the treatment of Palestinians in the territories, context is needed. A history lesson is necessary.

The conflict between Israeli settlers and the Palestinians started prior to the formation of the Jewish state of Israel.

Quoting The Case for Israel, starting on p. 141: (which goes into this better than I can on my own): For three-quarters of a century, the Arab-Israeli war has been between Arab nations dedicated to genocidal aggression against civilians on the one hand, and the Jewish state determined to protect its civilian population by taking defensive actions directed at military targets on the other hand. This war, in which the Arab side has consistently, illegally, and aggressively targeted civilians, and the Israeli side has consistently, lawfully, and defensively responded by attacking military targets, began in 1929, with the well-planned and carefully coordinated massacre of sixty Jewish children, women, old people, and other unarmed civilian residents of the biblical city of Hebron, in which Jews had lived peacefully and continually from time immemorial. The victims of this crime against humanity included many Jews who were not Zionists or settlers. The 1929 massacre was a harbinger of civilian massacres to come—much like Kristallnacht nine years later, which portended to the Holocaust. It was also the first instance in Palestine of “ethnic cleansing,” as all Jews of Hebron were either murdered or transferred out of the city in which Jews had lived for millennia.

Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, dissident groups – not under control of the Jewish agency (the pre-Israel government) or the Haganah (pre-Israel army) – did blow up the headquarters of the British colonial government located in a wing of the King David Hotel, killing 91 people, many of whom were Jews and British colonial officials. The Irgun claimed that warnings had been called in before the King David was blown up. Dissident groups also killed civilians at Deir Yassin and some locations, but these deviations were firmly condemned by the Jewish Agency. As soon as Israel became a state, its prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, disarmed these dissident groups by force, even sinking a ship loaded with weapons purchased by the Irgun. Sixteen Jews were killed by Haganah forces during the battles over the Altalana. No further acts of terrorism were committed by the Irgun or Lechi. Ben-Gurion also dismantled the Palmach—the permanently mobilized commando forces loyal to Ben-Gurion’s own party—and merged it into the IDF, which was and remains under civilian control.

Between 1948 and 1967, Palestinian fedayeen sponsored by Egypt and Syria murdered Israeli civilians in hundreds of cross border raids. Those murders took place before Israel occupied any Palestinian land or built any settlements outside of the area it controlled pursuant to the U.N. partitions and the cease-fire that followed the 1948 attack against the newly established Jewish state.

In the 1967 War, every single Arab army—including the Egyptian, Syrian, Palestinian, Jordanian, and Iraqi armies—targeted Israeli civilian populations centers in violation of the laws of war. Syrian artillery and MIGs opened fire on Israeli towns, killutzim, moshavim, including Degania. Jordan rained 6,000 shells on western Jerusalem and the suburbs of Tel Aviv, while its Hawker Hunter fighters dropped bombs on Netanya, Kfar Sirkin, and Kfar Saba. Iraqi planes strafed Nahalal, Afula, and civilian communities in the Jezreel Valley.

Damascus radio bragged that the Syrian air force was bombing Israeli cities. Jordanian forces were instructed to “destroy all buildings and kill everyone present,” including civilians, if they captured portions of Jerusalem. Palestinian battle plans included the massacre of Tel Aviv’s civilian population as the first step toward “the destruction of Israel.” Posters in Cairo showed “Arab soldiers shooting, crushing, strangling and dismembering bearded, hook-nosed Jews.” As Nasser put it, “If war comes it will be total and the objective will be Israel’s destruction.”

In sharp contrast, Israel did not target innocent civilians, although it certainly had the capacity to retaliate against the bombing of its civilian population centers. Israel threatened to bomb Amman and Damascus during the 1967 war if Jordanian and Syrian forces persisted in bombing Israeli cities, but it never did so. It bombed air bases, tank convoys, and other legitimate military targets, despite its enemies’ targeting of Israeli civilians throughout the short war. In Oren’s definitive account of the 1967 war, he concluded that the number of casualties among Arab civilians was “remarkably low” because Israel’s military actions were conducted “far from the major population centers.”

Since the end of the 1967 war, the entire focus of Palestinian aggression has been on civilians, both inside Israel and around the world. Global terrorism began in 1968 not as a last resort against a long occupation, but as a first resort—really as a continuation of an illegal and immoral tactic that had been continuously used by the Arabs against the Jews since the beginning of the conflict. Targeting civilians was not a result of the occupation. To the contrary, the occupation was the result—at least in part—of a long Arab history of massacring civilians.

If occupation were to justify terrorism, then the post-Civil War Ku Klux Klan and Night Riders who terrorized blacks during Reconstruction—which included the military occupation of the defeated Confederacy—would be seen as freedom fighters. (and of course is by Thor/Appy – great company!) Yet these terrorist groups have been relegated, quite deservedly, to the dustbin of history and are glorified only in racist films like Birth of a Nation. Many of those who march un support of Palestinian terrorists would be outraged if Birth of a Nation were to be shown on a college campus, or if the Klan were to be invited to recruit members, despite the reality that Palestinian terrorists have lynched and blown up more people—including hundreds of people of color00than the Klan managed to kill in its century-long reign of terror. Those who praised and supported the murderers who dynamited the black church in which four girls were killed are now regarded as moral monsters. Yet those, such as the poet Tom Paulin, who praise and support terrorists who murder Jews are invited to speak on college campuses as honored guests.

To be sure, Palestinian civilians have died in the quarter century long war, but their numbers have been infinitesimal in comparison to the number of Palestinians and Arabs killed by Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Iran during this same period. Even comparing innocent Israeli civilian casualties with Palestinian civilian casualties reveal Israel has acted with restraint. And this does not take into account the reality that many of the so-called Palestinian civilians were not-so-innocent harborers and supporters of terrorists.

Moreover, the Palestinian deaths have resulted primarily from terrorists hiding among their own civilians, as in Lebanon, whereas the Israeli deaths have resulted from innocent civilians being specifically targeted. When Palestinians have been accidentally killed in a legitimate effort to prevent terrorism, Israel has expressed genuine regret. The murder of innocent Israelis, on the other hand, has generated celebration among Palestinians.

In 1994, Baruch Goldstein, a deranged Jewish doctor from Hebron, machine-gunned 29 Muslims at prayer. His family claimed that the repeated terrorist attack against Jews made him snap. It is interesting that the same people who have always claimed that suicide bombers—and those who send them—were provoked by Israeli repression into their murderous acts quickly reject this claim when it is made by a Jewish family. In any event, Goldstein’s individual terrorist attack against Palestinian civilians was strongly condemned by the Israeli government and the overwhelming majority of Israelis and Jews throughout the world. This is in sharp contrast to the Palestinian reaction to their “martyrs” who blow up innocent Israelis and Jews. These people are praised and their families are well-rewarded for their well-planned crimes.


In April 2002, following hundreds of suicide bombings that culminated in the Passover seder massacre of 20 Jewish women, children, and men at prayer, the Israeli army entered the Jenin refugee camp, which has become a bomb-making factory and terrorist center. Instead of bombing the terrorists’ camp from the air, as the United States did in Afghanistan and as Russia did in Chechnaya, with little risk to their own soldiers but much to civilians, Israeli infantrymen entered the camp, going house to house in search of terrorists and bomb-making equipment, which they found. 23 Israeli soldiers and 42 Palestinians, many of whom were combatants, were killed. This is now called a massacre by Palestinians propagandists. By Israeli standards, the deaths of the 52 Palestinians, some of whom were not combatants, were a deviation from the norm, even though they placed their own soldiers at risk to minimize Palestinian casualties. But by Palestinian standards, the killing of only a handful of noncombatants is just another average day for their terrorism! Yet the hypocritical Palestinian cry of a Jenin massacre persist, and it is supported by the head of the United Nations Refugee Agency, Peter hanson, a longtime apologist for, and facilitator for, terrorism. He characterized Israel’s actions in Jenin as a “human rights catastrophe that has few parallels in history.”

Not only was Jenin not a massacre or an unparalleled catastrophe but it is regarded by many as a model of how to conduct urban warfare against terrorists hiding among civilians.

The Bostom Globe, in the “Ideas” section, analyzed the ethical training received by Israeli soldiers and concluded, ‘The IDF offers a model of us and other coalition forces. It offers a “purity of arms.”’ Indeed, the IDF’s ethical code, which is incorporated into the training of every Israeli soldier requires soldiers to act out of a “recognition of the supreme value of human life” and commands them to “do all in their power to avoid causing harm to noncombatants livees, bodies, dignity, and property; and refrain from obeying blatantly illegal orders.

Israel has met that challenge better than any nation faced with comparable damages. According to IDF figures compiled between September 2000 and March 2003, “18% of the nearly 2,000 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces…were civilians with no connections to acts of terror.” This is a considerably lower ratio of civilian deaths than those achieved by other armies.


Dershowitz went on to discuss how Israeli soldiers have repeatedly spared the lives of Palestinians when they were with women and children – citing sources. (in fact, the entire passage above was meticulously cited, but I just am exhausted typing it all out)

As far as whether those in occupied territories should get equal rights with Israeli citizens – not exactly sure how, given the Palestinians still have stated their goal is to eliminate Israel off the face of the earth. Giving them a right to enter and leave Israel at will puts Israeli lives very much at risk. I have read many stories of Palestinians coming into Israel for medical treatment – only to suicide bomb! And yet Israel allows Palestinians in for medical treatment.

The wall in the occupied territories is the only thing that has stopped the terror. Until the Palestinians demonstrate a commitment to end terror and suicide bombing, it is a necessary (but sad) requirement. Peace is indeed impossible, until Palestinians demonstrate they are more committed to a Palestinians state, rather than the destruction of Israel.

GIVEN the fact that those in charge of the Palestinians have repeatedly enacted terror against Israel and stated their goal is to eliminate Israel off the face of the earth, I would say the Palestinians have it rather good. They are well educated – with schools funded by Israel. There are numerous universities – schools of higher learning – in the occupied territories. Palestinians are free to practice their religion as they please, and in fact a team of doctors from the World Health Organization chronicled favorable health conditions in the territories. (such a report was since dismissed) (Juliana Pilon, “The United Nations’ Campaign Against Israel,” Heritage Foundation Report, June 16, 1983)

In September 1970, King Hussein of Jordan killed and injured more Palestinians in one month than Israel has during three years of responding to the suicide bombing intifada. (Estimates vary as to the number of Palestinians killed during “Black September: with some as high as 4,000 (One Day in September, Sony Pictures, (www.sonypictures.com/classics/oneday/html/blacksept), while others cite the figure of 3,000 (“Some Key Dates in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict,” www.umich.edu/~iinet/cmenas/studyunits/israeli-palestinian_conflict/studentkeydates.htmml)

Is there a problem with how the Palestinians are treated in the territories? Yes – but blame the corrupt leaders and their suicide bombing. THAT is more of the culprit behind this than Israel.

I shall end by repeating myself. The wall is necessary, until Palestinians care more about statehood than the destruction of Israel.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

The above post merely touches on the unacknowledged history of Israel/Palestine. More posts will follow tomorrow evening, after I have rested.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Anonymous Byrne said...

Akber said...

"Jews live in peace in Iran even now"


Thank you for your comment, however there is no peace in Blogland.....the advocates & opponents of Judaism ALWAYS clog up commentaries & distract from any REAL perceptive analysis such as the Open Letter to Bush and Ahmedinejad.

Such distractions & diversions are a pain in the butt, but draw significance to the subject being ignored........

Now, Miss R & Mighty Thor, please, comment on the subject of the memo.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Byrne,

I am laughing that you are lumping me with Thor. WOW! How loaded is that???

I already commented on the issue in the very thread this was first mentioned. (:Neocon death cult dreams.")

I agree the US has no moral justification for doing anything in Iran.

No arguments from me.

Until the President of Iran tons down his rhetoric and recants his Holocaust denial, as well as states he has no intention of driving Israel into the sea, then Israel does have a legitimate reason to target bomb specified sites.

Of course, ideally, the President of Iran would recant such statements, and no bombing occurs


This was a direct comment, based on reading the memo.

I am not the one clogging anything up. I asked JC a simple question, and he proceeded to insult me. I have every right to defend myself when insulted. (even if I find it an honor to be insulted by JC)

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Sorry, it was stated in "Phase Two: Preparing for war."

All the threads really seem to blend together nowadays in one big, pro-Iran/anti-US/anti-Israel festival. Hard to remember which thread!

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I agree with almost everything in this article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/06/AR2006030601614.html

Great, great article. Makes tons of sense.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Anonymous Byrne said...

Miss r,

That'll be the same Washington Post that reported[*] that the most recent National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of Iran’s nuclear program revealed that, “Iran is about a decade away from manufacturing the key ingredient for a nuclear weapon, roughly doubling the previous estimate of five years.”

[*] Dafina Linzer, “Iran Is Judged 10 Years From Nuclear Bomb U.S. Intelligence Review Contrasts With Administration Statements,” Washington Post, August 2, 2005; Page A01

Why the rush now by the USA to take action?? All signs point to the Iranian Oil Bourse set for 20th March 2006.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Byrne, are you saying we should wait until the Iranians get a weapon, and then react? Why is that wise? Furthermore, if we wait, then a destruction of nuke facilities means widespread death. (because we would cause a massive nuclear reaction in the destruction of such facility) Acting now prevents massive death down the line.

That said, I am not advocating all out war. I simply think a destruction of nuke facilities is necessary.

 
At Tuesday, March 07, 2006, Anonymous Mighty Thor said...

Notes On Historic Observation: The "Dialectic"
(Mighty Thor, 7 Mar 06)

Hello Mr. Byrne: I have not much commentary but to remark ur "memo" is so long I refused to read it upon principle. Why not submit a document 5,000 pages long instead? Note pls, dear Mr. Byrne, u're reasonably required to summarize any such "memos" and documents in ur own words.

So much for style. I also note u seek to give such as "Miss R" legitimacy. I can only marvel at her professional Jew's contempt for decency, but her great capacity for verbiage is notable--it's all she seems to be capable of; she then adds in dramatic flourishes indicated with asterisks (***) inasmuch as mere expression in prose needs more.

I thought "JC" went along quite a great ways and should himself be marvelling at Jew capacity for contempt of logic and reality a"Miss R" performs for fun and Satanic enjoyment.

"Qrswave," though I find her fairly strong in logic usually, falls victim for fallacy of "equivocation" when she equates Arabs within "antisemitism."

For antisemitism is generally & specifically regarded as anti-Jew. Arabs are foreigners and aliens obviously, but are an oppressed people by the Jews, no less than the Christian white folk here in USA.

So for "qrswave" to be anti-antisemitic is to betray the Christian white people in USA--ultimately intolerable and impossible--as well as to betray the general "antisemitic" cause (as in Iran) which has nothing to do with Arabs, but is purely and totally anti-Jew.

For "qrswave" to identify w. Jews and take their part in anti-antisemitism is a most pathetic excuse for thinking, logic, and reason; she may as well plead INSANITY, for what she practices is inexcusable and treason.

Topmost criminals and conspirators are such as the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR--see JBS.org)--which is 47% Jew, according to reliable info. (theBirdman.org.)

Jews in general, including lower-levels, "working-class," are however willing and knowing co-conspirators and indeed, they're given such as Israel to operate on their own criminal account. These two "players" then execute a charade playing "good-cop versus bad cop," Israel vs. United Nations.

It's important to understand that a nation dominated by Jews is dominated by not only topmost conspirators as CFR, but by a literal criminal element, this supplied by Jews (see "The New Jerusalem," by Michael Collins Piper).

In the midst of these criminal psychopaths, u have such as "Miss R" who thinks she's so brilliantly accomplished artiste of dramatic expression with her mighty asterisks (****).

WHAT THEN IS SOLUTION? We need then a serious Christian Cultural revolution as of Constantine the Great (4th cent.): but it would consist of an overwhelming rationalization. Christianity would become most integral BY LOSING THE "Judeo-Christians" (JCs)--as they would for example, if many of the worst elders died off and out. For this continued attrition is what needs to happen, I fear.

Another way for this Christian revolution is, for example, New Testament (NT) Conspiracy theory-analytic-template, my own discovery, taken more seriously, more widely than at present it's barely even entertained by only few theologians, presently. (See more on NT Consp. theory... on NewNation.org, under "commentary.")

CONCLUSION: So those are my observations; thanks, Mr. Byrne, for opportunity to make note. I continue to operate according to Hegelian dialectic, objective West and Christian AGAINST the Talmudic Subjective, hubristic, hysterical, narcissist, collectivist, fascist Jews and Israel. UN is product and image of same fascist ideal. Honest elections and death to the Fed. Thor

 

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