< HOME  Tuesday, December 13, 2005

Why LIE, when you're about to DIE?

"The state of California just killed an innocent man!" screamed Barbara Becnel and two other supporters of Stanley "Tookie" Williams after he was pronounced dead.

Williams claimed his innocence until the very end.

For those who don't believe him, explain to me why he would LIE when he knows he's going to DIE?

Under Federal criminal law (PDF) dying declarations have long been an exception to the rule against hearsay (804(b)(2)) PRECISELY because it is widely acknowledged that invariably people tend to TELL the TRUTH before they DIE.

Think about that while you go on with your daily affairs.

And remember, wrongfully killing one human being is like killing all of humanity.

May God rest Tookie's soul.

89 Comments:

At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Blogger isaiah14 said...

Tookie was killed because he had a life of crime, not because of just what he was tried for. He may have been innocent directly, but indirectly; I doubt it.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So assuming you are from the US - you should be put up on charges of crimes against humanity at the Hague for the war crimes of America.

Like you say...you may have been innocent directly but indirectly you did nothing to stop the chimp being elected and did not speak up.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Warren Mason said...

Excellent! and much appreciated thoughts. You might like this,

http://smokingmirrors.blogspot.com/

W.M.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Honestly, I wonder how Mr. Universe KNEW that without a doubt Tookie did not show ANY remorse for killings that happened 20 yrs ago. He must be taking psychic enhancement vitamins (or is just that dumb and cruel). Hmmmmmm.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous steven andresen said...

People are tried on the charges presented to them. If the evidence does not persuade a jury to convict the person on those charges that person is said to be not guity of the charges. The jury does not then go on to convict that person anyway thinking that, even though he or she may not be guilty of this crime, he or she sure as hell has lead a life where they are guilty of something. Wouldn't this just be insane?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Blogger PGnorcal said...

"So assuming you are from the US - you should be put up on charges of crimes against humanity at the Hague for the war crimes of America.

Like you say...you may have been innocent directly but indirectly you did nothing to stop the chimp being elected and did not speak up."

Just like every German Jew should have been tried for allowing Hitler to take power??

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tookie was executed because he was a remorseless murderer. Had he admitted his crimes and asked for forgiveness he might have been granted clemency.

Does anyone know how many copies of Tookie's "children's book" he actually sold? The first one sold exactly 332 copies. THREE HUNRED THIRTY TWO. That's it. He sold TWO of the second one.

Tookie could not or would not admit his crime because of what he was - a criminal. His moronic manipulation of the media and crybaby supporters are typical of black culture today.

The BEST thing that could have happened for blacks today was Tookie's execution. At the very least it demonstrated that murderer's are executed by the state sometimes, and SOMETIMES justice is served.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous CATO said...

That's why u r anonymous!! Too afraid to speak your peace with your true ID. You must be one of those old yes suh type negros who got your butt kicked and bitten by police dogs and water hosed by the man. Too spend the rest of your in prison is far more punishing...I'd rather die than spend my LIFE in prison....

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Anonymous -- good label for someone who wants to smear "black culture" over a discussion about whether someone should have been executed.

Well, before you starch your sheets and head for the rally, it might do you some good to understand just who is capitalizing on the criminalistic, violent and self-destructive themes that drive -- not BLACK, but gangster -- culture. Interscope, Sony, Columbia and others have made literally billions by peddling messages of self-hate and other-hate through the rapper-du-jour. Ice Cube was an NWA -- but now he's making family movies. The same people got paid in both cases.

Corporations help perpetuate gangster culture -- from Phillies blunts, for those who can remember that far back, to Crazy Horse malt liquor (which you could somehow never find in Simi Valley), companies have been quick to market the worst aspects of hip-hop culture to a mass audience. Of course, this while legitimate political organizations are destroyed, their members harassed, illegal wars are fought by this nation's poor while the rich line their pockets with no-bid reconstruction contracts, the government lies to you about me, me about you, and then to them about us both. And you are the savior with the solution for Black people today??

The best thing that can happen for Black people today is for others to stop thinking they can dictate what the best thing is for Black people. Tend your own damn grass. Ya heard?

P.S. -- They're PEOPLE, not indeterminate units referred to solely by color, as in "blacks". Just so you know.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know what's really funny. Anytime a black person doesn't agree with the opinion of anyone else, the automatically call that person a klanman. The same with the liberal white supporters who pretend to support them.

I notice that neither CATO or Subliminal master made note of the fact that mr. tookie's book is a total farce brought about to elicity sympathy from the media.

Those numbers are actually correct. Tookie sold only 300 copies of his famous book.

Did any of these protesters take the time to read the governers clemency denial. It's overwhelming. Tookie was a MURDERER who was executed by the as proscribed by law.

What's really funny about these white liberals that hide behind causes like tookies is that they are the same ones that will lock their doors when they drive through bad 'black' neighborhoods.

Can anyone here tell me the name of a nice upper-middle class BLACK suburb outside LA?

No you can't. Because there is no such thing.

Tookie was not murdered. He was punished justly for his crime as prodscribed by law.

Anyone who argues with that is just a no good "n*gg*r -- who will call me a klanman because he does not have the inteligence to make a rational argument.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

A little history for the historically-challenged:

The Avenue Cribs (note the spelling) were founded in the wake of the destruction of the Black Panther Party, US organization and other quasi-nationalist groups -- at least in part -- to combat the frequent murderous attacks of whites-only "clubs" such as the Spook Hunters, as well as the notoriously brutal Los Angeles Police Department. In the beginning, they had a political platform and action plan. Due to the ongoing efforts of federal law enforcement -- under Hoover, who was convinced that nascent Black political action organizations constituted a dire threat to the security of the United States -- and the COINTELPRO tactics that had disrupted the BPP previously, the revolutionary ideals that had led to the formation of the prior groups began to lose support in the Black communities, in large part due to the example of what happened to the previous proponents of those ideals. Slowly, the idea of community ownership, protection and empowerment gave way to individual enrichment at any cost. Around the same time, in part due to the now-gang's habit of carrying walking sticks, they became associated in the media with "cripples." This, along with the influx of new gimmie-mine members' laziness with their chosen title, led to the familiarization of the term "Crips".

And that's what Sony's selling under all that plastic no-theft tape. A counterfeit manhood to replace the real manhood that makes communities and families safe. A placebo that fractures the relationships that true manhood nurtures. I believe that understanding this dynamic is what had Tookie writing books from his cell.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If he was a White Man there would be a completely different outcome. Its amazing the hypocrisy that society lives with.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Blogger Tom said...

Back in the 1980's when VP Bush and Arkansas governor Bill Clinton were major players in the Iran-Contra drug pipeline, US cities such as Los Angeles were flooded with drugs. Money from these drugs was used to fund weapons manufacturers for the Contras in Nicaragua. This was a covert op that was strictly forbidden by US law.

Williams and his Crips associates undoubtedly have/had information that could fry people like Clinton and Bush. How convenient that he is now out of the way and like renegade investigative journalist Gary Webb, unable to expose a very dark side of American politics.

No one is going to tell me that the CIA was NOT connected
to the massive amounts of guns that gangs were able to attain. These guns were a key tool that gangs needed to protect their drug turfs, just like the Mafia. You can say that Williams is much like Saddam Hussein in the sense that after his usefulness and cooperation ended with the US government, he became extremely expendable!

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Really? Did you ever read any of the incoherent babbling the 'man' wrote from his cell.

By the way, "men" don't need to commit cold blooded murder to aquire vast sums of money like the $420 that tookie murdered for.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

To the other anonymous:

Don't know if the man was guilty or not. The jury's decision in no way make that issue clearer (sorry if I can't trust 400 years of bigotry, followed by 40 years of kum-bay-yah).

Also, I posted under Subliminal Minister, not "Master." See, we don't really play that game like you do.

Finally, I can't speak about Williams' book, or the number of copies it sold, since I haven't read it. However, I do know he was nominated for a Nobel, which puts him on a whole different level than a slur-spouting illiterate like you.

Have a nice day (and don't act like you DON'T go to the rallies).

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've never been to a klan rally, but after seeing the close mindedness of blacks like you up close, I'm going to start tommorow.

Neither Jesses Jackson or Martin Luther King are real 'ministers' either.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Anonymous:

So if Tookie was guilty than OJ is innocent right? By your logic?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exactly. If Tookie was guilty, OJ is innocent.

A jury of OJ's peers found him INNOCENT. There is no 'RALLY OF KLANSMEN' outside of his house demanding his death. White people respect the law. Blacks don't (in 2004 black men accounted for 6% of the population but 52% of PRISON population according the FBI)

So yes, OJ was found INNOCENT. Therefore he is FREE, not in JAIL. No protesters outside his house. No threats to RIOT IN THE STREET as blacks do (as they all have the mentality of children when they do not get their way)

TOOKIE was found GUILTY, sentenced to DEATH and EXECUTED. The criminal justice system worked, both times.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

I've never been to a klan rally, but after seeing the close mindedness of blacks like you up close, I'm going to start tommorow.

1. You don't open someone's mind by starting with epithets; you close it. But you know that, don't you?

2. In what way have I been closed-minded? Can you point to a post, a line, or anything? Please highlight it for me and I'll be pleased to tackle it.

3. Have you responded to any of the information I've posted? Any reaction at all? Whose mind is closed?

BTW, I haven't said one way or another how I feel about the execution. So we can't really be arguing...

Unless, of course, it's over your free use of a racial slur. Should I respond in kind?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, mister anonymous. OJ was not found innocent.

As a point of law, he was found NOT GUILTY.

Later in a civil trial he was held accountable for that crime.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

getting a nobel peace prize is like get getting a prize out of a cracker jack box. Can you say Arafat? hahahahah

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

in 2004 black men accounted for 6% of the population but 52% of PRISON population

"A review of the 2004 arrest data by race indicated that 70.5 percent of arrestees were white, 27.1 percent were black, and 2.4 percent were of other races (American Indian or Alaskan Native and Asian or Pacific Islander). "

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/persons_arrested/

Quad Erat Demonstrandum... less than 30% of arrests, but more than 50% of those incarcerated. Maybe they all resisted arrest???

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Arrested for what though?
Does the arrest data show the nature of the crime?

being arrested for having a roach in his pocket is a little different being arrested for robbery!

Anony, #2

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Anony, #2:

For what doesn't matter, though I think the site I was at has numbers on that as well. In the context of this discussion, my man trudged out that tired old dog about Black people overrepresenting in prison. So I had to illuminate for him that, although Black people are certainly most popular when it comes to incoming inmates, that doesn't correlate with the tripe he was trying to intimate -- that Black people have more of a criminal disposition than others.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh boy, someone is going to start this arguement again! This should be fun.

Lets call a spade a spade. I liked the comment about the 'upper-middle class black neighborhood'

That poster was right. They don't exist.

At the same time, you don't hear of many white riots either.

No one will ever no why. The solutions will flip from one extreme to another until the end of time.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Count me in too! I'm all for slave reparations myself. I want my watch, wallet and bicycle back!

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

At the same time, you don't hear of many white riots either.

This weekend, Australia had a mob of 5,000 drunken whites chasing and attacking people of Arab descent.

Ever hear of Black Wall Street in Tulsa, OK? Burnt to the ground by a mob of jealous guess-whos. Rosewood, anyone?

Let's not mention if the home team loses -- some white people take to the streets torching cars, breaking glass et al. A poor girl in Boston lost her life behind just some such foolishness a year or so ago.

No one here to talk seriously, I guess. Kinda sad -- I feel like Sharon presents himself -- a man of peace without a viable negotiating partner. Yeah, sit here and talk up slave reparations as though it were a joke. Real open-minded.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that Sublimiminal Minister actaully thinks that white people take his ranting seriously.

Guess what, we don't care, and never will.

Ariel Sharon is about your only ally.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Guess what, we don't care, and never will.

And that is exactly your problem. Funny how I can care for the white girl whose eye the cops shot out, but you can't care for me. I have never had it put to me so succinctly before. Thanks for the eye-opener.

P.S. you can't even spell subliminal when it's on the screen to guide you. Start caring about phonics.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Austrialian riot was in response to a series of very brutal and racist GANG RAPES perpertrated upon WHITE WOMEN by gangs of BLACK men.

The rapes occured SOLEY because the victims were white, and were extremely racist in nature.

The (jewish) controlled media tried to quash this in, and thus was the response.

Similar events occured in South at the begining of this Century. usually the crimes were heinious and outrageous crimes perpetrated upon whites by blacks. When jewish interests tried intervene in order to protect their investments in the blacks, the whites, as any normal society would, rebelled.

Slavery is alive and well and living in Africa. More than 1,000,000 people are bought and sold each year. The slaves are mostly black. The sellers are black too.

But once again the only rational arguement heard from the black side is a finger pointing childish 'but-look-what-he-did' one.

Never take responsbility for your own actions. Blame everyone else for your shortcomings. Expect and demand that comfort and happiness be delivered to you by others. Shun anyone that values hard work, thrift, education, patience and tolerance but instead demand that they accept your way and only your way as the only acceptable way of thinking. Glorify violence, consumption, and the easy way at the expense of the 'white man.' These are the modern 'black ideals'

This is why they are a failed race in america.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Woooowweeeeee ---

Looks like some whiteboy's gonna get an ASS WHUPIN!

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

whatever -- to me, it looks like they all will. Have nice lives, and good luck with all the spelling.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

PS - If you're black, also point out things like spelling errors in order to make an intellectual arguement.

Ever since the emancipation proclimation blacks have always believed that big long words made them sound smarter, even though they have no idea what they mean.

For some reason they also think they have to rhyme. Ever hear Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson talk?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is hillarious.

We got one nazi / head of the Klu Klux Klan arguing with a Martin Luther King wannabe that is defending a man convicted of murding four people in 2 armed robberies.

You can't PAY for this kind of entertainment.

I think your up Mr. Himmler.

Please keep going guys!

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

At least they can spell them, clown. Try "Proclamation," with your smart-ass self.

If you are White, continually make subjective statements that can never be disproved, and then demand proof that you're wrong. Your comfortable worldview is safe in this way. Just look at Bush for a model.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

statement to anonymous: We were trying to figure out how Stanley Tookie Williams' execution "was the best thing that could have happened for Blacks"?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Martin Luther King wannabe that is defending a man convicted of murding four people in 2 armed robberies.

Sorry -- I've not defended Williams at all. To listen to the Duke boys you'd think I had, but that just means you're not reading carefully.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

THE ONLY REASON WHY 52%OF BLACKS ARE IN PRISON IS THAT 95%OF THE POLICE FORCE AND PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IS WHITE AND RACIST YOU BIGOT. WHO COMMIT THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMES AND AND GET AWAY WITH IT MORE THAN WHITE PEOPLE.DID YOU KNOW THAT IF A BLACK MAN AND A WHITE COMMIT THE SAME CRIME THE BLACK MANS SENTENCE IS LIKELY TO BE THREE TIMES AS LONG AS THE WHITE AND THAT IS IF THE WHITE SERVE ANY TIME AT ALL

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can see that this 'conversation' has degenerated into a racial battle of wits .. and I have to say that the pale-faced red-necks are losing (yes I am white) .. I think the whole point is being missed here. Mr Williams, be he guilty or not was incarcerated for a crime which bore the death penalty. His 'side' had over 20 years to prove his innocence or for the 'real' perpetrator to come forward. This did not happen .. hence Mr Williams' untimely demise last night. The discussion here should not be about if he was guilty or not, but if a person should in fact be killed for a crime he is convicted of. If we look at the rest of the World we find that most of the Western Nations have actually abolished the death sentence and those that are left include Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and USA ... do you see where I'm going here? And to prempt some foreseen comments, no I'm not some lily-assed liberal, yes I probably would be hesitant about walking through some predominantly black areas at night ... but having said that, I've also been to Alabama and some white people there are pretty scary. I have never been mugged or beaten by a black man, but I have by a white man. I never had my house robbed by a black man, but I have by a white man. I have never had my car stolen by a black man, but I have by a white man. So what do those numbers tell you ... yes, I lived in a predominantly white area. Just in case you're wondering, in two of the above cases I found out who they were and beat the crap out of them ...so the justice system does work.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Interesting how anonymous (you all have to start using SOME kind of names) thinks I am defending Williams, just because others are attacking him (a dead man). What I did was to post some history on the Cribs street gang, so as to allow for informed discussion. Apparently, I was casting pearls to swine unable to process information critically, but it was worth a shot anyway. We then discussed relative numbers of arrests vs incarcerations, and then out came Phillippe Rushton, Bill Pierce and the rest of the Stormfront boys to try and turn this (like everything) into a "black-people-suck" diatribe.

Sorry, but I couldn't stand for it.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Good job, anonymous! Make crime pay! :)

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excuse my ignorance but whore are Bill Pierce and Phillippe Rushton? Racists of some sort I take it?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what happened in australia' and the response from the frech people when young black people were demonstrating to show the injustice in their society' just shows how barbaric white people are and you have the nerve to call us uncivilized

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous hd said...

Why lie when you’re about to die?

Perhaps because you’re hoping that someone will believe your lie and spare your life!

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Racists of the worst stripe, my man. Rushton is a eugenicist and head of the Pioneer Fund, and Bill Pierce was the head of the National Alliance, and the author of "The Turner Diaries," til he bought it.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

doesnt feel right when someone says something racist about you does it by the way im not racist but like to engage in sensible debates without race being a factor

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Perhaps because you’re hoping that someone will believe your lie and spare your life!

He could have apologized, and Arnold Schutzstaffel would have looked more favorably on clemency. But he didn't, stating that he couldn't apologize for something he didn't do.

I don't know if he did it or not. Doesn't really matter, now that he is wormfood. But I can respect that he held to his principles, even unto death. Would have been easy to just say sorry and go back to your cell, I'd think...

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous hd said...

Would have been easy to just say sorry and go back to your cell, I'd think...

_______________________

If you change a story that you have been espousing for twenty years, it shows that you are a liar as well as a convicted murder. Tookie may have felt trapped by his lie.

As far as his “principals” - what the heck do we know about his principals?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Blogger qrswave said...

uh, that's "principles."

You appear to be unfamiliar with them.

No matter.

It's funny that you think a cold blooded murderer might be more concerned about being perceived as a liar than he is about saving his neck.

Your ability to reason is impressive.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was going to side with the Minister, but in reading, the nazi has some good points too.

I figured that the statistic about the book was a lie, but I just read from half a dozen sources that it's true - he only sold 300 books.

It's NEVER too late to be redeemed. No matter how far down the scale you have gone, you can always ask to be forgiven if you are willing to admit your human frailty.

I think Tookie's problem was that he did not believe in god, be believed he WAS god. He could not humble himself.

As far as the rest of the racist rants go, that debate will be resolved only in the kingdom of heaven. Beware that there is good and evil in the world, and in each of us.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous hd said...

It's funny that you think a cold blooded murderer might be more concerned about being perceived as a liar than he is about saving his neck.

______________

Can you read?

I think a cold blooded murder might think that being seen as a liar as well as a convicted murder and founder of one of the most violent street gangs in recent history might not be helpful in his quest for clemency. Who is worse: 1) a convicted murder and founder of the crips or 2) a convicted murder, founder of the crips, and a liar? Add it up Sherlock.

The thesis that a man will not lie in the face of death weak at best. The hearsay exception for dieing declarations that you cited is limited to statements concerning the cause of the death of the witness (i.e. the person who’s death is immanent). No other statements are admissible under this exception.

You know nothing of my “principles”. I’ve never posted anything here before.

Your ability to spell check is quite impressive.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Blogger qrswave said...

For the record, I have not read his book.

Nevertheless, I can't understand why everyone assumes that there is a causal relationship between the number of books sold and the substance of his book, or the veracity of his claim of innocence, for that matter.

How many were printed? Who distributed them? and the list of possibilities goes on...

Come on, people.

Think critically.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Blogger qrswave said...

hd,

For the record, I did not mean to offend you.

Everyone's opinion is welcome at this site, except when it's expressed through profanity, obscenity, or threats of violence.

As for the susbtance of your argument, Tookie had concluded that certain death
was imminent; and his claim of innocence concerned the cause or circumstances of what he believed to be his impending death.

Please, come again...:)

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Tookoe" Williams deserved to die. Nearly a quarter of a century of appeals and no progress on his so-called innocence.

Founding the Crips gang ALONE is enough to warrant the punishment. He never apologized for that one, either. Maybe he wasn't sorry after all.

Furthermore, if you don't like the death penalty, work to change it. For now, it is the law of the land.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous tp said...

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/141504.php

Hip-hop culture grass roots organizers, rap artist, actors, politicians, religious leaders and now the ‘bangers’ and the ‘rydas’ them self are speaking out.

Friday evening I saw a report on BET about how some LA Blood members turned weapons over to a BET reporter for her to turn them into the police. The gesture was one in ‘good faith’, showing that peace is possible and to ask California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams.

Now we all know the Bloods and the Crips have always struggled as rivals against each other, and in this show of ‘good faith’ the members of the Bloods told the BET reporter that if they do this to Tookie they can do it to any of us.

This story is important; but not mentioned anywhere – not even on BET’s web site. The Bloods ‘good faith’ action for peace is being overlooked or hidden.



Oops?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous hd said...

When the first response you have to my post is to point out my typos, you can expect me to be a little offended.

I realize that you are not a lawyer, but you must understand that these dieing declarations are only admissible if they are made when death is imminent. The Federal Courts have interpreted immanent to mean that the witness is actually moments away form death (or thinks he is moments away from death). Weeks, months or days don't cut it.

Furthermore, his statement that he is innocent has nothing to do with the cause of his death. The cause of his death was lethal injection, not innocence. If he had said “I have been poisoned ” while he was strapped to the gurney, his statement might have been admissible.

Tookie’s statements would not be admissible under the dieing declaration exception.

This little exercise demonstrates why it is dangerous to confuse legal principles with philosophical principles. Sophistry is the antithesis of philosophy.


But all this has little to do with my point. The hearsay exception seems to be part of the substance of your argument, not mine.

My argument is that men will lie when they perceive it to be in their best interest, even if they are facing death. And the idea that impending death acts as some kind of psychological “truth serum” is weak at best.

Ta ta

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous tp said...

And the idea that impending death acts as some kind of psychological “truth serum” is weak at best.

Can you vouch for this hd?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Rational Realist said...

Really uninteresting to see the idea-less right wing kkkrowd still spewing their idiot spew.
I wonder if anyone who thinks justice was done in this case can explain to me what is going on over at this website -> http://www.innocenceproject.org/

164 convicted criminals who have done hard time, some as much as 20 years, are finally exonerated via DNA evidence. The real killers, rapists, etc?
Free the whole time.
Browse the case histories. About 90% of these men are black.
Your justice system seeks scapegoats and imprisons the innocent.
Want justice to be served? Encourage more civilian oversight of police and higher standards for judges and trials.
Oh, bigotry and right wing double think only serve those who use it to exploit you.
Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
~RR

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous hd said...

tp,

I can assure you that if I were facing death, and I thought a lie would spare my life or even improve my chances of survival, I would tell that lie with a clear conscious.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous hd said...

For all you spelling nazis out there, I meant "conscience".

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Blogger qrswave said...

I rest my case.

People who believe that TRUTH is a principle, do not LIE when it's expedient.

It was not expedient for Tookie to lie about his innocence.

Unlike you, Tookie chose death over dishonesty.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Rational Realist said...

Also, in response to the bogus statistics about Tookie's book sales.
There aren't just two books, and I'm not buying that there were only 300 sales (as if higher book sales would make a man's life worth more?).
Anyhow, for the curious, here are his books as displayed from Barnes & Noble (who don't waste much database for people who only sell 300 copies) - I count 12 distinct titles, not two. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?SAT=1&WRD=Stanley+Tookie+Williams&SRT=R
I wonder who's pushing these bogus book stats on the gullible public... Fox, perhaps?

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Rational Realist said...

ack.. URL cut off - Books by Stanley Williams

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous hd said...

Unlike you, Tookie chose death over dishonesty.

_________________

You can offer nothing other than your hunch to support that assertion.

Your proposition could be true, and it could be false.

Unless you've done the Vulcan mind meld on Tookie....

[original star trek music plays in the background]

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous jjartz said...

Since most prisoners are illiterate, the fact that Tookie wrote books caught my attention. During the execution vigil, I heard excerpts from one writing where Tookie spoke directly to youth from his experience, and decribed how demoralizing gang-banging is, and how he came to his peace of mind that was evident in the few audio clips I heard from him. Another literate prisoner got my attention during the vigil: Gordon Bradbury VanEllen, who was incarcrated in LA in the late 70s, and whose cellmate was George "Roger" Oglesby (sp?), a white man who claimed Tookie confessed murder to him. Gordon reads the LA Times and notices that his former cellmate turned a crucial piece of evidence against Tookie, so an all-white jury could find guilty. Gordon remembered other prisoners warning him that his cellmate was a snitch. And this Gordon saw deputies handing out files on other prisoners the better to detail their stories.
Anyway, Schwarzenegger was too weak to spare Tookies's life. And now he'll be even weaker, I have lost respect for him as a artist. What good is it for him to be governor, if he can't pardon a fellow body-builder? I was hoping Schwarzenegger would use his dramatic timing (like he did on Jay Leno's show when he announced) and call in his clemency at the last minute. Hasn't he ever seen that old Edgar G Robinson movie where he's a DA rushing with the pardon to the prison, but before he can serve it, all the lights dim as the innocent is being electrocuted?
Schwarzenegger could have spared Tookie, recognized his redemption, and thereby recommended it and underlined Tookies words adding them to his own power, sending out a powerful message to all the other prisoners in the Cal. system that there is a reward for doing good.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Blogger qrswave said...

It's not just "a hunch."

I've thoroughly explained the basis for it.

Thus, in legal parlance it's called "a reasonable doubt."

And his life should have been spared based on it.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, the book sales statitics are correct for the childrens books. He sold only 320 copies of the first book during its first printing. These are audited statistics that booksellers use and are widely available.

The reason for the silence on this is that they are difficult to dispute and very embarassing to supporters of Tookie.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous hd said...

The only reasonable doubt that is relevant is the reasonable doubt of the jury. And Tookie's jury didn't find any. And that conviction “beyond a reasonable doubt” was upheld during twenty years of appeals.

So, if a man on death row says, “I’m innocent” that equals reasonable doubt, because people who are about to die would never lie?

Astounding!

I’d love to get you on a jury some day. You are just the kind of person that I’m looking for.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well folks I can't say I'm cheerful that asshole is dead, but I certainly am not sad!

That fucking monkey put together a major criminal organization, responsible for God knows how many crimes. Behind every crime those bastards commit, there's that tookie's name on. Is that pretty?

ALL people like that bastard tookie, nigger or otherwise MUST be dead!

It just makes me sick to hear people trying to make that tookie bastard seem like some kind of hero! Some hero the bastard!

I hope the victims families find at least some closure.

Nice site, you can post your comment without having to waste time "registering". Will be back Thank you!

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

PGnorcal said

"Just like every German Jew should have been tried for allowing Hitler to take power??"

International bankers (nearly all Jewish)and the terms they dicated for Germany at the WWWI Versailles peace negotiations were directly responsible for the rise of Hitler.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous CanadianLefty said...

Let me make sure I understand. A man who has managed to turn his life around has just been executed after a politician who has done more than anyone to promote violence with his mindless films has refused clemency. California's a hell of a lot safer today than yesterday, right? Wrong.
We have abolished the death penalty here in Canada. In fact, the US is among a rogue's gallery of killers when it comes to killing its own citizens. China, Iran, North Korea, Russia...you like having these paragons of virtue as bedfellows, do you?
If America must insist on having the state exterminate people, at least have the decency to either admit you are hypocrites or stop arrogantly lecturing other nations about human rights.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Scooter said...

The anonymous comments by the specimen who posted the "monkey" comment is the best reason I can think of for abolishing the death penalty. It panders to the very worst instincts of the electorate and is fundamentally racist. Eighty-five per cent of the death row population is there for killing whites, yet black people make up half of those murdered in the US each year.
Might as well re-install the "whites only" drinking fountains - at least it would demonstrate some honesty for a change.

 
At Tuesday, December 13, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps Hitler sould have had a trial.

He could have been found guilty of killing Mr Goldburg, but not of the Camps. Then we could have the same argument.

The man was bad news.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, in the last week before his execution, Tookie petitioned the California Supreme Court for clemency in exchange for informing on other Crips involved in the murders.

http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=7173

There went the "principles."

Also, to the race-card players, it may interest you to know that white, asian, and latino murderers are also executed in death-penalty states.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The Austrialian riot was in response to a series of very brutal and racist GANG RAPES perpertrated upon WHITE WOMEN by gangs of BLACK men."

As an Australian, I feel I should correct the disinformation spread by racist right wing Republican supporters, who wouldn't have a clue about the problems of Australian society today. The riot was started by white anglo Australians in response to lebanese gangs getting a bit to rough with the locals. That is all! And the response by anglo australians was heavy handed to say the least. Our racist media tried to tell us that the riot was fuelled by alcohol, and that is started as a peaceful protest. Are we to believe that a racist protest is acceptable peaceful or not? And what's alcohol got to do with the way people feel. Our own prime minister refuses to acknowledge that Australia has a problem with racism. But when you look at Australia's policies on refugee's (the unfair treatment that breaks UN laws), the war on iraq and the racist new anti-terror laws... thanks to our pathetic government's close relationship with air head BUSH... our cohesive multicultural society will be a thing of the past! All because our Austrlian government, for some odd ball reason, wants to follow the Neo Conservative freaks in the White House. And in turn, will affect our society directly. The only race riot ever to occur in Australia was perpetrated by WHITE Australia, over something minor! A bug thank you to all Republicans! You've ruined your own country... and now your gonna stuff us up too.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Death to zionists said...

I feel obliged to point something out-TOOKIE WILLIAMS WAS THE CO-FOUNDER OF THE CRIPS! I wonder if all these people who defend him know what the Crips are, or what they've been responsible for. I feel no sadness at the fact that Tookie Williams was executed-He was very likely just what he was accused of being, a ruthless killer-considering the crips track record, can you really think any differently? Of course he protested his innocence, and wrote children's books-He was trying to ride a wave of anti-capital punishment sympathy to his acquittal. Shame it didn't work.
Personally, I am more worried about the thousands of US soldiers and Iraqi civilians left dead by our Zionist owned government's unjust war. Maybe you should be too.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Maria said...

"Furthermore, if you don't like the death penalty, work to change it. For now, it is the law of the land."

Not all states have the death penalty. My state, MA, does not although our Utahn governor wants to bring it back.

As to Tookie: criminal justice system is that: criminal. Racism and corruption are abundant. Since Tookie was a black man I would not be surprised if he was set up just as Ruben Cantu and others have been. Bottom line: I think the execution was carried out because others looked up to him and he was a community leader. The powers that be just can't seem to abide that.

Regarding his books, youngsters read excerpts last night and it was impressive how well he seemed to talk to that age group. He knew how to modulate his writing. I just read some of his Peace Protocol and it was written quite differently with very penetrating and wise observations.

Death penalty is barbaric - no turning back if someone says "Oops!". Errors happen even if corruption and racism could be eliminated. Even DNA is not reliable since it depends on the person not making mistakes labeling, testing, reading, etc. I've worked in enough research labs to know how easyly we all make mistakes.

Enjoyed reading your posts, Subliminal Minister.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Maria said...

" I think the execution was carried out because others looked up to him and he was a community leader. The powers that be just can't seem to abide that."

I meant execution instead of commuting to life sentence. And let me correct the typo: easily not easyly.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what more can you expect from teh son of a nazi

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Death to Zionists said...

I wonder if you'd all be making such a big deal were it a (allegedly reformed) former klansmen, or co-founder of the skinheads who was executed instead of a black gang member? I imagine many of the same people defending "Crip" Williams would be calling for blood, since it's different when it's a white gang. Can you say hypocrisy?
And before the accusations start flying, No, I am not a white supremacist, and I am not a racist. But, I will say that I find it amusing how the black community protests about discrimination and racism so much, yet you can turn on many black-run radio shows or TV shows (in philly at least) and hear all sorts of racist drivel about others. No one can say a word about them, since if you do you are automatically labelled a "racist" and "White oppressor"-if you are black and you do so, instead you are accused of "collaborating with the White man", and "selling out". (Wendy Williams is one talker who readily comes to mind, Star from The Star and Buckwild show another-and on a further note about hypocrisy, Star admitted to voting for Bush, and even though his tune has now changed, I've got to say-Way to go idiot!) I also know that if a white radio host or tv host got on spouting the same sort of things on the air about blacks, the NAACP and FCC would have him shut down so fast, his head would'nt have time to spin. I don't mean to put down anyone's opinion, but I think there is a double standard when it comes to racism, and I wanted to take this opportunity to point it out.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

I wonder if you'd all be making such a big deal were it a (allegedly reformed) former klansmen, or co-founder of the skinheads who was executed instead of a black gang member?

To my recollection, there are very few instances of a Byron De La Beckwith-type doing a worldview-180 in his cell. More likely, people meet up with others that support their racial fantasies, and when/if hey come out, they come out harder, more committed to their cause, etc. I think the word here is unrepentant. If David Duke suddenly went around providing breakfasts for hungry Black schoolchildren, I would take that as proof of a change in that man (after testing the food, of course -- I ain't stupid). Of course, that's not very likely, is it?

And I have to say it -- there is plenty of prejudice on the part of Black Americans. Racism implies the power to make it count, so I can't really subscribe to the idea of Black racism. But I have plenty of occasion to wonder to myself "Isn't that exactly why you don't like them?" But it's silly to try and claim that Black people, if such can be taken as a whole, have no prejudgments regarding other groups -- just as silly as claiming that White racism, after ruling the roost for over 400 years, suddenly took a backseat to egalitarianism in the heats and minds of white Americans.

That said -- what about Howard Stern? No racist comments from him? yet he's Clear Channel's money machine... no shutdown there. There are more, but I'm not gonna list them. The point is that there are asses on all sides, which fact can't blind us to the existence of good people on all sides. I haven't heard any of the shows you mention, but I don't listen to much radio anyway.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous subliminal minister said...

I feel obliged to point something out-TOOKIE WILLIAMS WAS THE CO-FOUNDER OF THE CRIPS!

Understood. He was also many other things.

Are you the person you were 35 years ago?

Is it possible that views you held as sacred back then have fallen by the wayside since? Is it possible for a person to change, I guess is the big question. I believe it is -- I have to, because the world today kinda sucks. If I didn't believe people could change, I'd probably end it right now. So, am I inventing false hope for myself? I don't think so. I am a witness to how much MY life has changed in the time that I've been around, and changes still. So I assume transitively that the same applies to others. Hence -- people can change.

If we let them. Expectation is a powerful thing. If I expect every White man to be a sweaty, stupid, drunken, racist cracker, reality will shape itself to suit my expectation, and I'll see what I hate in every White guy I meet. It actually has less to do with the object and more to do with the subject (me). So I choose to expect that the egoists, who lay their stained film over the world as it is and want me to see it as dirty as they do, will give way to people who know why they are here, and revel in it.

All things work to the good for those who love God, not that white-haired dude in robes in the sky somewhere, but the motive force in back of all things. We are created that it might experience life, the world and creation through us. So that it can feel the wonder of discovering creation and self for the first time, through our eyes.

Absent the ability to change, to do otherwise, to redeem onseself, the process described above is disrupted, we start living selfish, surface, hollow lives, having been separated from a key component of our purpose: growth. The word repent translates as think again or think differently. It doesn't mean start coming to church on Sunday, though that may be a manifestation of repentance. Rather it means to change your way of thinking, to bring it into alignment with how things really are. Stop living in a dream-world, to paraphrase Morpheus.

So, while I am wholly unable to judge as to whether Stanley Williams was in fact redeemed, I believe completely in the existence of the possibility of redemption, and therefore I must allow for its possibility in every case. If Manson had been writing anti-cult stuff for the last 30 years, I might give him a shot. If he can't change, can we? For it to be possible for anyone, it must be possible for everyone -- Manson, Dahmer, Williams, Bush, Hitler -- everyone.

And no -- I am not a real minister ;)

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Also, to the race-card players, it may interest you to know that white, asian, and latino murderers are also executed in death-penalty states.

HA! Your post includes a link to National Vanguard, and you're calling out "race-card players"? That is super-rich!

From the site:

"If you support the mission of National Vanguard -- breaking through the walls of censorship to be a beacon of hope to White men, women, and children around the world -- you should join your efforts to ours."

If the hope is only for White families, then what do the others get? What is the hope for White families?

Race card.... says the deckmaster.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Subliminal Minister said...

Personally, I am more worried about the thousands of US soldiers and Iraqi civilians left dead by our Zionist owned government's unjust war. Maybe you should be too.

Concern for one does not lessen my concern for another. The this-or-that dialectic is exactly what's been used to put us in the sorry state we're in now. And by us, I mean Americans, people of Earth, whatever.

You don't run out of caring. It's an inexhaustible resource, as long as you work the muscle. It atrophies easily -- just look around.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Just like every German Jew should have been tried for allowing Hitler to take power??"

Exactly! I do believe the guy who made the original comment was intending to show how ridiculous the attitude of "he must have been guilty of something" is, and you have substantiated his argument.

I am by no means totally opposed to the death penalty, I personally view it not as a deterrent, but as garbage disposal.

However, in the US, you guys can hardly claim to have a good handle on who is innocent and who is not. You have a history of convicting innocent people, and as such, I can't see how any US citizens can be happy that the death sentence is applied in "beyond reasonable doubt" cases tried by a jury.

I would say that the death penalty could only be applied in "beyond ANY doubt" cases, i.e., given your track record, the bar should be set considerably higher than it currently is.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Blogger Jeff G said...

About 2000 years ago an agitator in the middle east commented: "He who is without sin(hamartia), cast the first stone." This was in response to some very zealous men perpetrating capital punishment--in this case, stoning--on an accused adultress.

The inference here is that only those of untainted character are sufficiently righteous enough to judge and carry out an execution. The further inference is that none who walk the earth are.

Basically, our minds and hearts are not clean enough to engage this level of judgement and punishment on fellow human beings. Not one of us has traversed this life without causing pain and suffering to others. Given our imperfections, we have no authority to perform such sentences. To think we do is pure arrogance.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Throughout the proceedings, Hauptmann maintained his innocence, claiming that the money found in his garage had belonged to a deceased friend, Isidore Fisch. He further maintained that he had not turned the gold certificates in because he was an illegal alien and he feared being deported. Hauptman was executed on April 3, 1936.” - http://www.charleslindbergh.com/kidnap/index.asp

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Anonymous tp said...

Basically, our minds and hearts are not clean enough to engage this level of judgement and punishment on fellow human beings. Not one of us has traversed this life without causing pain and suffering to others. Given our imperfections, we have no authority to perform such sentences. To think we do is pure arrogance.

Agreed. Death does no one honor.

 
At Wednesday, December 14, 2005, Blogger qrswave said...

ATTENTION, everyone.

The comments section is now closed.

Thanks all, for sharing your thoughts and keeping it relatively civil.

To the person who calls themselves "Death to Zionists," your opinions are welcome, but your threats of violence are not.

I have no objection to your expressing your opposition to that ideology.

But, if you continue to post under a handle that threatens violence, your comments will be deleted without regard to their content.

Please, do not make me do that.

This is meant to be an open forum for the civil and reasoned exchange of ideas.

Thanks.

 

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